Keel bolts leak on '82 H30

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malyea

.
Dec 15, 2009
236
'87 Irwin 43 Sea Breeze
Well this one's not gonna' be any fun....

I've had a wet bilge since I bought my '82 H30 almost 2 years ago - thought some was rain leakage, some leakage from stuffing box, etc...

I did not think of keel bolts leaking until today when close inspection of a dry bilge showed that at least 3 or 4 bolts are slowly seeping water.

I've read a few of the previous threads about repair options but here's my first question(s) -

How is my keel to hull joint designed, engineered and executed?
What components are involved?
How thick is the fiberglass and is the keel simply "hung" from the boats bottom with 8 or 9 keel bolts and no "backing plate"?
Is there any wood core involved like the older Catalinas?

None of the keel bolts show any rust and the boat has been in fresh water for many, many years.

Thanks, I'm heading for the rum bottle ;-(
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
There has been a post or two over the years where an owner has dropped the keel to reseal. Our boats are identical in having a heavy fiberglass hull stub with a lead keel bolted up to it. I don't remember which sealant was used.

First I would try sealing and then tightening all the bolts(torque values below thanks to "jphud", another H30 owner). Take off the offending nuts and washers, rout out a little around the bolt, seal with Maine Sail's favorite - butyl tape. This would best be done on the hard, sitting heavily on the keel.

Dropping the keel and putting new sealant around the perimeter of the entire hull-keel joint is the other option. Supporting the boat is the main problem, lots of stands placed strategically at bulkheads.

1/2" bolts with 3/4 nut 45 ft lbs
5/8" bolts 5/16 nut 97 ft lbs
3/4" bolts 1 1/8 nut 132 ft
1" bolts 1 1/2 nut 325 ft lbs
 

malyea

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Dec 15, 2009
236
'87 Irwin 43 Sea Breeze
Thanks Ed.

So what I picture is...we've got the fiberglass hull (1" to 2" thick fiberglass...?) and another maybe 6" to 8" thick fiberglass hull stub that the lead keel is bolted thru?

Is there any wood core/filler in the hull stub or is it solid FRP?

If solid FRP, how many years of water seepage can it sustain before the hull stub is compromised structurally?
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
It is solid fiberglass. But not sure of the thickness, six inches max I would guess. I would never worry about water compromising the hull. I have read that the bolts lost their threads to corrosion. My bilge is always wet and the bolts are usually covered. But they are solid and clean, probably because it is fresh water. If water between the hull and the lead is a concern then you should drop and reseal. If you Search with "dropped keel" and then "none" for boat model you should find some more experience.
 
Oct 6, 2007
1,144
Hunter H30 1982 Chicago IL
It's solid fiberglass. No wood core to worry about. I know there is a metal backing plate laminated into the keel stub of my '82 H30. I don't recall if it's aluminum or stainless. Not absolutely certain of the hull thickness at the stub either -- maybe an inch or so. There is about 1/4 inch of fiberglass above the backing plate.

Sounds like it's time to drop the keel and re-bed it.
 

malyea

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Dec 15, 2009
236
'87 Irwin 43 Sea Breeze
FALSE ALARM........I hope.....

I dried the bilge out after watching the bolts weep all day, and came back the next morning to a perfectly dry bilge - zero dampness at any bolt. We then sailed her for 3 windy hours with shortened sail at heel angles from 8 to 22+ degrees on all points of sail - still not a drop of water in the bilge and zero weeping at the bolts - YAHOO

(I had isolated the inflow of water from the stuffing box to keep it out of the bilge during this sail test (it's leak rate is the primary source of bilge water and I'll tend to that soon))

Sooo, here's what I think happened - an inch of water had sat in the bilge so long that enough of it weeped into the space under the keel bolt washers that it took several hours for it to weep back out after I dried the bilge - giving the appearance of leaking keel bolts...... ........ ....... i hope

So I'll repack the stuffing box, elimnate most (maybe all) water in the bilge, clean around the keel bolts/washers and apply a bit of sealant around the exposed bolts/washers to help prevent water intrusion from the bilge.

......back to the rum, to celebrate ;-)
 

malyea

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Dec 15, 2009
236
'87 Irwin 43 Sea Breeze
That's exactly the brew we used to lubricate our "keel bolt sail test" and to wash down the Cuban sandwiches!

Best to all and thanks again to all for the great advice!
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
It is solid fiberglass. But not sure of the thickness, six inches max I would guess
Ed! Six inches? Do you mean the hull would be 6" of solid glass there?

I recently did this job, as you know. From what I can tell on an H25 that hull bottom is about 1/2". A Cherubini 44 is 2-1/4" which is WAY overkill for production fiberglass boats of any vintage. I would estimate that the H30 is not more than 3/4".

The important thing is to know what kind of 'glass is used in this layup. In the 1970s everything was woven roving, shoelace-like ribbons of glass fibers, about 3/8" wide and about 3/32" thick. This was woven at 90-degree angles into a heavy cloth, smooth to the touch (unless you got afoul of the end of one of those individual strands). In fiberglass molding this was usually laid up inside several layers of plain mat (the non-directional stuff Corvettes are made of, thin and flimsy but facilitating a fair, smooth outer finish against the mold).

Then the brainstorm came to bond both these kinds together. This innovation was known as Fabmat-- a trade name from J-M or Owens or someone. It was 24-oz-per-sq-ft woven roving bonded to 16-oz mat using a little bit of polyester resin-based glue. This made layup faster because-- given adequate saturation-- you were laying up two layers at once. The bottom of a C44 is solid Fabmat, about 25-30 layers (I'm guessing; I don't recall). This would sink a Hunter 30 if done there.

Like all boats of the '70s the H30 is undoubtedly done with Fabmat and I could guess about 8-10 layers to a finished depth of about 5/8" - 3/4". Fabmat when cured is very strong-- compare it to the way if you interlock your fingers you can hoist a heavier guy over the fence than if you just lapped your hands one over the other. The secret is the woven roving. It has plenty of crevices to hold resin and to which to bond new layers. It is stiff enough and puncture-resistent enough. (This is what they should have put in the hardware-fixing places on old Corvettes, and didn't. It's why the bumpers loosen and fall off.)

As far as actually changing the bedding compound in the keel, it is easier than you think. Prop the keel in place from outside using good timbers, 2x4s, etc. Make a brace so it doesn't fall over if you were to lift up the boat. Go inside, back off all the nuts to give yourself 7/8" or so of thread. Go round the boat and turn all the jack stands, a little on each at a time, till the boat rises up off the (well-supported) keel. Remember the keel is only about 3500 on that boat-- it's not exactly massive. Whatever would jack up a car would hold it.

Once you have the boat up, block it where it is and scrape out all the old 5200. Clean well. Douse with acetone or styrene. (Gasoline works too, but don't use it.) Get about 3 or 4 tubes of 5200 and empty them (I mean cut open the tubes and get ALL of it) into the gap. Lower the boat onto the keel.

The 5200 will ooze out like crazy. Let it, till you have the nuts back down-- one or two clicks on the ratchet and then stop. Then fair or scrape off the excess 5200 you'll think you've wasted. You haven't. The more that comes out, the more you are sure it's also where it should be. You spend an 'extra' $30.00 on 5200 and you never worry about it again.

Tomorrow, torque up the keel bolts. Another two or three clicks on the rachet and stop.

Next day, same thing. Next week, same thing. Every season, apply a moderate about of pressure. Don't kill them. If you grunt even just a little it's more force than needed. Let the 5200 do the work, not the bolts.

This is all I did with mine and there's no worries. In fact I was in the middle of making new backing plates for the keel bolt nuts and had them backed off again and the yard moved the boat-- picked it up and relocated it-- without warning me. The 5200 held on the keel without the nuts, which were still loose when I inspected the boat in the new place. This is what 5200 does.

Using anything other than regular-cure 5200 voids all my goodwill towards you in your finishing this job. :p

A little later I checked the condition of the hull strata by drilling a few holes and probing with a syringe full of epoxy. Aside from one small spot I knew was bad I could not get any epoxy to go down the holes and finally just filled them to forget about it. It's as solid as a rock.
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
Hey JC, the stub is thick but how thick? Close to the stub, where my engine water thru-hull is located, it is about 7/8". I have the plug to prove it. But that stub that the keel bolts come up through has to be much thicker. I am talking about the vertical part above the hull to keel joint in the picture.
 

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Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Sorry, Ed-- I don't have that sump-like 'stub' as you called it; but I was referring to the 'glass skin to which the keel actually bonds. I guess we both figured out what the other meant.

7/8" of solid 'glass is good. I hadn't expected that much. Where my galley sink drain goes through is about 5/16" and the same under the after end of the v-berth where the head plumbing is. --sheesh. I 'glassed the heck out of that compartment but am using heavy vinylester plates (cutouts from the 2006 Cherubini 44's cockpit) about 5/16" thick as backing plates. They are 6" diameter and will add some stiffness to the hull skin.
 
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