Keel bolt access Swing Keel

[archimedes]

I am looking to buy a 1977 Cat 22 with a swing keel. I've been told to make sure you check the keel bolts.

But when I was checking the boat out, there is no way to gain access to the keel bolts. There is no way (that I can see) to access from the outside. And no access panel on the interior of the boat to view the keel bolts.

Am I just not looking in the right place.

How does one gain access the keel attachment?

 

[Gene Neill]

There are four of them, two on either side of the keel, in the bronze hangers. Can't miss em!

YES YES YES do make certain they can be removed, one at a time, without breaking off. If in doubt make the seller do it so there's no finger pointing if one breaks.

EDIT: Here's what you're looking for:

Here's what you hope they DON'T look like. These broke off.

 

[CaptDon01]

Gene hit it square on the head with that photo. Sometimes the bolt heads have epoxy around the heads to keep them from loosening up, and covered with bottom paint, so they might be hard to see. "If" a keel bolt snaps off, it's not the end of the world, the weldments are replaceable from inside the hull, but it requires some grinding and epoxy work. Not overly difficult, and fairly cheap job if you do it,(and lots of information available on how to do it). If the bolt(s) won't come out, or the buyer doesn't want to mess with it, the price should reflect the replacement costs. GREAT design, and after 40+ years and thousands and thousands of swing keeled C-22's, pretty reliable too.

Don

 

[archimedes]

So the bolts are viewed from under the boat? I was under the impression that the bolts were viewed from somewhere in the bilge area. So I was looking for a compartment or hatch, inside the cabin, where I could see them.

I can see the keel trunk inside the boat, so I figured the bolts were somewhere inside the trunk. No?

 

[hawk232]

The are seen from the bottom of the boat. maybe 1-1.5' back from the front (top) of the keel.

personally, I do not believe that seized bolts should deter a sale unless the boat is priced at top dollar. if they are seized, the price should be negotiated though. I am in the middle of replacing both of the front weldments on mine

 

[Barnacle_Bob]

The are seen from the bottom of the boat. maybe 1-1.5' back from the front (top) of the keel. personally, I do not believe that seized bolts should deter a sale unless the boat is priced at top dollar. if they are seized, the price should be negotiated though. I am in the middle of replacing both of the front weldments on mine

Hawk, Gene, Don, and Archimedes: this is a really helpful thread. When we bought our 1980, I, too, was concerned about keel bolts after doing some online reading. But, a knowledgeable friend told me not to worry - in many years in the business, he had never heard of a C-22 losing a keel due to bad bolts. Now, after 3 or 4 years of ownership, I'm thinking maybe I need to crawl under my trailer and take a look.

Dumb questions: 1) is there anything that I can apply - like WD-40 - that will lessen he likelihood of them snapping off when I try to replace them?; 2) if one (or more) do snap off, do I have to replace the weldment, or can I drill the bolt out and then replace it?

Thanks for raising awareness of this maintenance issue.

 

[CaptDon01]

Bob....All I can give you is my personal experience. Years ago on my 1980 C-22, exclusively used in fresh water, I never had any issues with the keel bolts when I removed the keel to sand blast it, barrier coat, and some fairing, etc, if I remember, the bolts looked fine, and I don't remember replacing the bolts, I simply re-used the same bolts,(how stupid that was looking back). The boat was used for 11 or 12 more years under our ownership, and other than some bottom paint, the keel never required removal again. On my current 1988 "New Design" swing keel C-22, I sprayed the keel hangers with penetrating oil and let it set for several days, maybe a week, repeated the process again. Finally worked up the nerve to try and remove the bolts and they loosened. I sprayed them again, and worked them back and forth when removing them. I removed only one at a time. When a bolt was removed, I sprayed out the weldment with a good dousing of WD-40, mainly because that's what I had, and it had a nice moveable spray tube. I replaced the bolt, and moved on to the rest of the bolts. So when the time comes, the keel bolts will be nice and easy to remove.

Bob, don't you have a "New Design" C-22? If you do, this is one of the many improvements Catalina made to the C-22. Where on the original C-22, to access the starboard weldments, you had to cut the interior liner to get to the back side of the hull, on the "New Design", there is already an access hole in the cabin floor, (as shown in the attached photo).

Don

 

[SailAway1]

Hawk, Gene, Don, and Archimedes: this is a really helpful thread. When we bought our 1980, I, too, was concerned about keel bolts after doing some online reading. But, a knowledgeable friend told me not to worry - in many years in the business, he had never heard of a C-22 losing a keel due to bad bolts. Now, after 3 or 4 years of ownership, I'm thinking maybe I need to crawl under my trailer and take a look.

I wouldn't believe that a C-22 has never lost a keel. When I bought my 1980 swing keel, it had been in the water for a few years and I did not check the bottom before making the decision to buy it. That was a bad move. When I took possession and got it home, I found 2 of the bolts missing (one on each side) and the other 2 were hanging on by a thread . After fixing the problem, I checked them regularly!

 

[Barnacle_Bob]

Don: great info, thank you. You are correct in that my C-22 is not a "new design" - it's an original design. Looks like I'll have quite a hole in the cabin floor if I do need to replace the weldments. My boat has been used exclusively in freshwater so far, so maybe the bolts are just fine; but, sounds like it's best to replace them if I can.

Sail-Away: thank you and great photos. I hope to go to the boatyard and crawl under the trailer this weekend to have a look.

 

[CaptDon01]

Bob, it's not that big of a deal even on the original boats. You just cut a small piece if the liner out to get to the hull, and the "lump" where the weldments are. You already have a good idea where they are from looking for the "lump" on the other side. The exact location can be found by taking a small drill and once the bolt is removed, drill through the middle of the hole and you'll have an exact location. Sometimes a Dremel tool with a long small drill bit works fine.

Don

 

[archimedes]

Bob, don't you have a "New Design" C-22? If you do, this is one of the many improvements Catalina made to the C-22. Where on the original C-22, to access the starboard weldments, you had to cut the interior liner to get to the back side of the hull, on the "New Design", there is already an access hole in the cabin floor, (as shown in the attached photo).

Don

That's what I was looking for. Some sort of access hole on the cabin floor. But on a 1977 there is no access panel on the cabin floor.

I have a much better understanding of where to look for the bolts (and weldments) now.

Thanks for all the pics and replies - really helpful.

 

[watercolors II]

See attached Catalina 22 keel drawing with my notation of where the top of the keel trunk is for visual reference.


SailAway1 - I see in your attached photos of rollers supporting the hull. Rollers give you only about one half by 2 inches of hull support on top of each roller.

The roller is flexing the hull in the area of the keel hangers which in turn is working the keel bolts back and forth as it is trailered. We can see the results in these photos.

 

[CaptDon01]

I attached some photos that show the "lump" inside the hull where the weldments are. The photos are from my project "New Design" boat, but the weldment "lump" is typical of the older boats as well. As the photo shows, the "New Design" C-22 already has convenient access to the starboard side weldment location. The original design C-22's required a small section of the liner to be removed to access the starboard side. The portside weldments are both pretty much the same with access through the forward dinette locker as the 3rd photo shows.

It's not that horrible of a job. Some aggressive grinding with a Dremel tool to expose the top of the weldment, "pop" them out with a little persuasion from a hammer from below, drop the new weldment in place, grease up a bolt and screw it in from the bottom to hold the new weldment in place, and mix up some thickened epoxy. The grease prevents the epoxy from sticking to the bolt. These are some pretty simple directions, better step-by -step instructions are available. But it does give you the idea that all is not lost by a broken or stripped keel bolt. The job can be done with the boat sitting on the trailer, just work on replacing one weldment at a time.

Excuse the filthy interior, I haven't taken the time to "field-day" the interior yet. Gotta have something to do when I retire!

Don

 

[SailAway1]

The roller is flexing the hull in the area of the keel hangers which in turn is working the keel bolts back and forth as it is trailered. We can see the results in these photos.

Not true, the boat was in the water for at least 2 years before putting it on that trailer. I noticed the missing bolts almost immediately after it was pulled out of the water. After fixing the problem, I trailer sailed the boat on that same trailer for another 4 years and the bolts never moved on their own. I did replace them twice during those 4 years just to make sure they stayed strong.

My guess is that wave action over the years with the keel in the down position caused enough flex between the hull and brackets for the bolts to work loose.

 

[$tingy Sailor]

Barnacle_Bob,

Your question got lost in the fray, it seems. Yes, you can drill out a snapped bolt and replace it without replacing the weldment. It's not easy to drill out only the center of a 5/16" bolt without damaging the nearby weldment threads, the hole has to be large enough and long enough to get a very good bolt extractor in there, and drilling stainless steel is a separate discipline from drilling mild steel. It has to be done slowly, maintaining a bite with the bit, and keeping the bolt as cool as possible. If it overheats and develops a work hardening, it becomes a whole new level of misery.

The best way to prevent snapping one is to not overtighten it, 17-20 ft. lbs. is all they need.

So protect your keel bolts and they'll protect you.