johnson QR levers on forestay

[centerline]

does anyone know what size of quick release lever I would need for the forestay on my 21ft masthead rigged boat? I have no idea what kind of force the forestay tension is capable of.... the west marine catalog has two listed, a small at 400lb SWL, and a large at 1000lb SWL.... I looked at both and the large one seems like overkill....
from what I have seen I am more interested in the johnson brand over the others available but if there is a better one available I would be interested in hearing about it. thank you....

 

[ShotgunSlim]

Catalinadirect.com sells a forestay quick release lever for use on their 22 foot boat that should be compatible with your boat's sail area and rigging load. I just purchased 3 of them for my forestay and two lower forestays. I'm not sure what the working load is on them but they are a whole lot heavier and seem better made than the ones I looked at at West Marine. Get ready for some sticker shock when you look at them though...

 

[Sumner]

Most Macs go with the 14-205 and that is what I'd use if I had the boat. We went the next size larger...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/rigging-24.html

... but that was a little overkill. It is a good mod. It is going to add length so keep that in mind,

Sum

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[kenn]

centerline, do you have a backstay and is it adjustable? If yes to both... I can't see what use the quick-release on the forestay would be.

On our boat we don't have a backstay, so the sidestays are positioned back of abeam the mast step for 3-point support.

Last year I was all gung-ho for putting a quick-release on our forestay... til a friend showed me that I could pull the mast forward enough with the jib halyard (which we use to raise the mast anyway) to attach the forestay to the bow. So, that revelation saved me about $40...

I guess the only other use of the quick-release is being able to release rig tension when the sails are down, but then the mast might flop a bit which I think is harder on everything than simply remaining tensioned.

 

[centerline]

centerline, do you have a backstay and is it adjustable? If yes to both... I can't see what use the quick-release on the forestay would be.

On our boat we don't have a backstay, so the sidestays are positioned back of abeam the mast step for 3-point support.

Last year I was all gung-ho for putting a quick-release on our forestay... til a friend showed me that I could pull the mast forward enough with the jib halyard (which we use to raise the mast anyway) to attach the forestay to the bow. So, that revelation saved me about $40...

I guess the only other use of the quick-release is being able to release rig tension when the sails are down, but then the mast might flop a bit which I think is harder on everything than simply remaining tensioned.

Sumner,
my turnbuckle when properly tentioned is 8" pin to pin. when extended to connect and disconnect it is a bit over 9.5 inches

Kenn,
from your avatar photo it looks like you have a fractional rig. so I suppose its possible for you to get a bit of bend from the mast to make the connection to the stemhead fitting. with the masthead rig i have, I am pulling directly against the tension on the back stay. I dont have any give. when connecting to the stemhead, I pull down hard on the gin pole to get the anchor pin in, and then after connecting, I have to tighten my forestay turnbuckle about 1.5-2" inches to tension the rigging. I have it adjusted so that tightening the forestay will pull the backstay and the shrouds to the proper tension, without further fiddling with the other stays.
the advantage would be that i would be about 5 minutes quicker and less stress on my wrists and fingers when tightning up the turnbuckle.... just attach it and snap it closed and put the safety pin in.... AND with another hole in the adjuster to shorten the rigging to, after I sail for a few hours and the rigging and hull streches a bit and loosens up, I could take the slack out of it by going to another hole.... easier than getting out the wrenches and tightening the turnbuckle.
and my forestay turnbuckle has a bit of a rough spot in it so if i need to spend a some money to replace it, im not opposed to spend a bit extra to get an upgrade.... i just need to decide on what is the better option.

(I have broken both of my thumbs within the last two years and my dexterity isnt what it used to be, and the little ring ding pin keepers are a real basta*d for me... so a snap closed device would be better in every respect)

 

[kenn]

Kenn,
from your avatar photo it looks like you have a fractional rig. so I suppose its possible for you to get a bit of bend from the mast to make the connection to the stemhead fitting. with the masthead rig i have, I am pulling directly against the tension on the back stay. I dont have any give. when connecting to the stemhead,

That's why I asked about a backstay

Many sailors adjust their backstay on the water to tune the rig, so if you did have an adjustable backstay, you'd be able to slack it off when fastening the forestay. We don't have a backstay, so I'll leave it to the sailors with backstays to say whether they tension the backstay before the forestay, or vice versa.

 

[davenlynn]

Go with the Johnson quick release lever sku # 14-205. I use it on my Mac 25 and am tickled with it. I got mine from riggingonly.com for $49.61.

 

[Sumner]

Go with the Johnson quick release lever sku # 14-205. I use it on my Mac 25 and am tickled with it. I got mine from riggingonly.com for $49.61.

That is a good price and they have good service.

Sumner,
my turnbuckle when properly tensioned is 8" pin to pin. when extended to connect and disconnect it is a bit over 9.5 inches..

You might be able to remove the turnbuckle and replace it with the 14-205 as its minimum length is 7 3/8th and max is 8 3/8th with 3 adjustments and you are 8 inches now...

http://www.csjohnson.com/marinecatalog/00032.htm

I'd check into that and verify the dimensions,

Sum

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[centerline]

That's why I asked about a backstay

Many sailors adjust their backstay on the water to tune the rig, so if you did have an adjustable backstay, you'd be able to slack it off when fastening the forestay. We don't have a backstay, so I'll leave it to the sailors with backstays to say whether they tension the backstay before the forestay, or vice versa.

thank you davenlynn and Sumner.... I will get that one and try it.

kenn, Im sure other boats will tune differently, and i suppose there are some who would tune mine differently if they were standing the mast...
but kinda like yours, my shrouds connect to the chainplates aft of the tabernacle and the mast will stand fine without the back stay.... but it still has one and im not really sure what it does for the boat (but im not going to remove it to find out)
and as lazy as i am, and this being masthead rigged, i have found that having the all the stays and shrouds tuned correctly and the mast rake set properly, the turnbuckle on the forestay is all that is needed to set up and take down the mast when sailing off a trailer. if it was moored and was set up for a few months at a time, im sure i would need to re-tension the rigging using the other turnbuckles as well..... im no expert at it, but i will always do it the easy way until i learn of a better, safer or more efficient method.

 

[Joe]

Here's another way to solve your problem...

A pair of quick release levers on the shrouds....... a multi-hole pin adjuster (not quick release) on the forestay..... I'm assuming you don't have a backstay, in which case a quick release would be unnecessary.

Anyway, the mast is raised and you set the rake with the multi hole pin adjuster..... then engage the quick release on the shrouds to tension the rig.

The headstay adjuster offers many options.... or you could use a turnbuckle instead.

The quick release feature on the shrouds is common on racing dinghies .... the crew can quickly relieve the mast bend for downwind work.....going back upwind the shrouds are smartly re tensioned by engaging the quick release levers.

If you look at the Johnson hardware display you'll note that the difference between the two adjusters is the amount of travel...... the wire and pin sizes are both the same..... These devices are not designed for mid sized boats..... but rather small, lightweight craft........

If you're just having trouble getting your headstay pinned.... use the jib halyard to pull the mast forward..... or loosen the shrouds..... pin the stay.... then re tension the rig.

 

[Sumner]

...If you're just having trouble getting your headstay pinned.... use the jib halyard to pull the mast forward..... or loosen the shrouds..... pin the stay.... then re tension the rig.

Joe the shrouds on the Macs/Ventures use the venier type plates with lots of holes to set them and would be pain to work with on a regular basis. The nice thing about the Mac is all the rigging stays attached except for the forestay. Tension everthing once and you are done for a long time.

To step the mast you just use the jib halyard and/or mast raising setup (if you have it) and raise the mast and pin the forestay and you are done. The problem is you do set the tension with the forestay and if you just pull the forestay and pin it you really don't have enough tension, but a number of people do this. The poster (and we use to do this) pins the forestay and then turns the turnbuckle to tension. That only takes a couple minutes but with the Johnson lever on the forestay you just pin it and put the lever over-center and you are done and tensioned with just one lever and don't have to mess with the shrouds or backstay.

On another note we might be your way in a few weeks. Not sure how long we will be there, but probably just a day or two,

Sum

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[centerline]

Joe the shrouds on the Macs/Ventures use the venier type plates with lots of holes to set them and would be pain to work with on a regular basis. The nice thing about the Mac is all the rigging stays attached except for the forestay. Tension everthing once and you are done for a long time.

To step the mast you just use the jib halyard and/or mast raising setup (if you have it) and raise the mast and pin the forestay and you are done. The problem is you do set the tension with the forestay and if you just pull the forestay and pin it you really don't have enough tension, but a number of people do this. The poster (and we use to do this) pins the forestay and then turns the turnbuckle to tension. That only takes a couple minutes but with the Johnson lever on the forestay you just pin it and put the lever over-center and you are done and tensioned with just one lever and don't have to mess with the shrouds or backstay.

On another note we might be your way in a few weeks. Not sure how long we will be there, but probably just a day or two,

Sum


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this is correct... and to confirm, the macs DO have a back stay...

 

[rgranger]

Most Macs go with the 14-205 and that is what I'd use if I had the boat. We went the next size larger...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/rigging-24.html

... but that was a little overkill. It is a good mod. It is going to add length so keep that in mind,

Sum

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Sumner! You should write a book. Your stuff is really good.

 

[Joe]

On another note we might be your way in a few weeks. Not sure how long we will be there, but probably just a day or two,

Sum

Great, I hope we can get together, with luck even sail a bit..... Email or call me for sure. Joe

Regarding the quick release stuff.... Completely different dynamic with a backstay.... The forestay lever just makes it easier to get hooked up. But... an adjustable backstay tackle would solve the problem also, and allow more options. That said...... I'm the kind of guy that would install the quick release on forestay AND a backstay adjuster, 'cause I'm always looking to make it easier and faster. heh heh.

 

[Sumner]

Great, I hope we can get together, with luck even sail a bit..... Email or call me for sure. Joe

Sounds good. There is chance we might go home first, but will call when we finally get on the road either way,

Sum

 

[Joe]

Sounds good. There is chance we might go home first, but will call when we finally get on the road either way,

Sum

Yippee!!!

 

[RichH]

Here's you technical answer.
A Mac21 probably has 3/16" shroud wire which has the ultimate tensile strength of 4000 psi. Therefore 'size' the quick connect for 4000 psi (or higher) load strength.

If 7/32" dia wire, then size the quick-connect to at least 5400 psi.

The OEM 'stress design' probably included an additional 50% safety factor (typical engineering safety factor for 'inshore' design is 150%) .... maximum expected/calculated loads at 4000/1.5 = 2700 psi --- max. 'calculated' developed loading. Never 'size' anything 'structural' on a boat that does not include the proper *safety factor*: Inshore @ 150%, Coastal 200%, Blue water 300-400%.

;-)

 

[Sumner]

Here's you technical answer.
A Mac21 probably has 3/16" shroud wire which has the ultimate tensile strength of 4000 psi. Therefore 'size' the quick connect for 4000 psi (or higher) load strength....

The 26's have 5/32 for shrouds and 1/8 for forestay stock, and the 21 is probably the same but I don't know for sure. I agree that you need to size the components and is the reason I went up a size on the lever on our boat from the one he is getting when we went from a 1/8 to 5/32 forestay. Also changed out the 1/4 pins to 5/16 for the same reason.

One other thing and it isn't related to your response is that the Mac's (most) have a backstay but the forestay is tensioned with the upper shroud on the ones I'm familiar with and not the backstay. The spreaders are swept back.

Sum

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[RichH]

The simplest way to do this is simply measure the exact wire diameter of the shroud getting the quick connect; then, go to a 'catalogue' and look up the wire strength for that particular wire. Then consult the list of load bearing for the quick connects AND go up ONE size larger ..... because the quick connects are more prone to failure than the wire.

That will automatically equate to a 'healthy' safety factor beyond what the boat designer had in mind; but of course the inside diameter of the swage connector on the quick-connect cannot be 'oversized' and MUST match exactly the wire size. Almost the entire boat 'strength' started out based on 'wire size' during the design process ... dont use 'less' than the strength of OEM wire size and you'll be in the 'ballpark'.

How boat designers do is, is they calculate a fully loaded boat under maximum heel (the force in the wire or the force needed at the top of the mast that results the boat being pull ~45° over/heeled) and arrive at what forces develop under normal conditions (heeled over at 45°), .... then add the customary/historical 'safety factor' on top of this to accommodate the 'unexpected' and 'unforseen'.

 

[Sumner]

..How boat designers do is, is they calculate a fully loaded boat under maximum heel (the force in the wire or the force needed at the top of the mast that results the boat being pull ~45° over/heeled) and arrive at what forces develop under normal conditions (heeled over at 45°), .... then add the customary/historical 'safety factor' on top of this to accommodate the 'unexpected' and 'unforseen'.

Interesting, thanks for the info, I always wondered what was involved,

Sum

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