Jib Too Tall

markwbird · Sep 22, 2016

Raking the mast back will have consequences, i.e. increased weather helm so you may not want to do that. Probably the best thing to do is have the sail re-cut.

BlowMeAway · Sep 22, 2016

Hi Dana, do you have a photo of what it looks like at the mast head? Is the head of the sail and shackle maxed out at top? I'm thinking a rake aft of a few degrees on the mast would give you more than an inch or two at the headsail tack...and not compromise your main. Is your back stay adjustable? Turnbuckle?

BlowMeAway · Sep 22, 2016

I don't think you'll need to have the sail recut, worst case another grommet and some fabric reinforcement at the head of the jib. Your rigging is nearly identical to mine. We added a grommet and fabric so I could lift the headsail up about 10 inches, using wire rope and thimbles to clear the life lines and add some forward visibility under the headsail. Weather helm has never been an issue on this lake.

shemandr · Sep 22, 2016

More rake will give you more weather helm. Maybe you're thinking it's only 2 or 3 degrees. But small adjustments can be significant. I call it a balance point - not a technical term. Are you old enough to remember those Rolla-Bolla boards? When we were kids, we would stand with one foot on each side of a board with a roller underneath. You could rock back and forth but there was a balance point where you could just stand weight evenly distributed. Balance. When the adults tried it they'd shoot off the end and get hurt. It's like that with a sail plan. A few inches can be significant.
Set up the rig the way it's supposed to be and then re-cut the sails if necessary to fit.

Joe · Sep 23, 2016

You shouldn't have to rake the mast to make the jib fit.... NO.... If the sailmaker won't correct the problem, it will be at your expense to have the sail recut to properly fit your boat. It isn't that expensive. They will simply cut a few inches off the bottom.
It would behoove you to do a little research on how to measure and order sails if you are going to buy them online or from a 3rd party rather than a local loft.

Scott T-Bird · Sep 23, 2016

Dana Shields said:
The back stay is fixed; however, I have an idea that if I rake the the mast by fixing the back stay, I'll buy myself the extra length in the front. But is this folly? Will I, instead, need to sew another thimble into the head sail?

What harm is there in at least giving it a try? We don't know how your mast is positioned to begin with. Perhaps you don't know either. It might be completely out of whack as far as anybody knows.

I would certainly spend some time by first learning about how your rig should be positioned and how to tension it properly. Then, see how your sail fits. After that, give it some more rake and go sailing. What have you got to lose? If your weather helm increases and you find no love, then consider having the sail cut properly. I'm not convinced that you will notice any significant difference if you simply start out by raking it back a few inches. But if you do, and it makes it worse, then simply go back to what you had before. What is there to lose by trying?

Jim 5757 · Sep 23, 2016

Methinks Dana needs some clarification...
1) please get Don Guilette's book on sail handling. Worth its weight in gold.
2) weather helm is when the boat keeps trying to turn up into the wind. A bit of this is good - much safer than lee helm where the boat keeps trying to turn away. That can be bad.
3) Mast rake has an effect on this and I agree with Scott... experiment with your boat and see what works best for you.

justsomeguy · Sep 23, 2016

Dana Shields said:
Does it usually increase weather helm or decrease it?

Raking the mast aft will increase weather helm

alexco38 · Sep 23, 2016

You use a "halyard knot" or "wipped rope end"?
The wipped rope end may not let the halyard fully into the masthead sheve.
I had the problem with my jib. Someone told me to change to Halyard knot and gave me 3 inches extra.
Just google halyard knot.

Scott T-Bird · Sep 23, 2016

justsomeguy said:
Raking the mast aft will increase weather helm

That is, if you already have weather helm (maybe). If you have too much sag in your head stay, you may actually find a lighter feel at the helm if you increase the backstay tension. There are so many dynamics involved that you will just get confused when the theoretical or predicted results don't match your actual observations. Keep an open mind when you make adjustments. There are so many inter-related and moving parts to a sailboat (and weather conditions that affect you rig), that you can't just isolate specific causes and effects in a vacuum. If your rig is out of whack, you may have ill-fitting sails, weather helm or lee helm, sagging forestay, lacking pre-bend or too much pre-bend, too much rake, or too little and probably a few other issues that I'm not thinking about right now.
Alex also makes a good point about the halyard knot versus a spliced end with a shackle. Do you have an old head sail? Perhaps measure the luff and compare with your new sail. Before you re-cut your head sail and/or give your sail maker hell for the wrong dimensions, I suggest making sure your rig is properly set up. It also doesn't hurt to make your own tweaks to the rig and go sailing. You'll learn all this stuff on your own, without getting a bunch of pre-conceived notions that may end up being misleading. Reading books is an excellent way to actually learn. Sometimes internet advise can be off-base merely by the lack of information (provided by you) and/or the inability to go into the depth of a topic that you will learn from the best books.
Start out with Don's Publications for sure, which you can purchase at the SBO store. Most of the info that you will pick up in this forum is influenced by his publications, and right on target to boot. It is very readable and understandable - dedicated to helping new sailors understand at a basic level and well beyond.
I really doubt that it is too complicated for you to understand. I think it is necessary to be less dogmatic about what you read or are told, and more reactive to your own observations. But you also have to be methodical in your experimentation to eliminate the confusion when you are making trial and error adjustments.

Benny17441 · Sep 23, 2016

The h27 Cherubini is a masthead rig designed for very little rake at the mast. Measure the sail and see if the measurements are in agreement with what you ordered. You will need more than a couple of inches to properly fit that sail. The Cherubinis were headsail driven and most were delivered with Genoas and not working jibs. Could the measurements have been mistaken for that of a latter 27' model? When rigging old boats there is always the possibility that a PO may have performed some modifications so actual measurements of the boat itself need to be taken before ordering things like sails.

Joe · Sep 24, 2016

Raking the mast moves the center of effort aft... towards the rudder.. increasing "weather helm". The purpose of raking the mast is not to make the jib fit. It's to attain the balance and handling characteristics you want your boat to have. You can plumb the mast to check for it's current state and if it's pretty close to vertical I'd leave it alone and try to get the sail fitted another way. If it's leaning forward... well.. then that might be your problem.

I like one of the previous comments that suggested checking your halyard connection to see if you are actually getting full hoist.

Finally, I emphatically recommend you measure your new sail yourself to make sure you received what you paid for.

mm2347 · Sep 29, 2016

What type of halyard to sail do you have. Having a sim. problem I was able to cut off the eye splice and shackle and use a bunt line hitch knot to attach the sail. I lost about bout 3 inches in length and can fully lift the sail .

Jib Too Tall

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