Jib Line Overlaps

Jan 28, 2023
30
catalina 22 Clinton Marina
Great day yesterday. My first solo sail on a beautiful light wind day on my new '84 C22. Only issue I encountered were jib line overlaps on both winches. The jib lines kept bunching on the bottom of the winch versus the top. My jib lines feed the winch through a car block located toward the aft of the rail (see photo). Thinking about changing the angle by moving the block car toward the front of the rail.
Other suggestions?
 

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May 17, 2004
5,099
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Hard to say from the perspective of the picture but that entry angle doesn’t look too bad to me. Generally speaking an entry from below the winch is fine, as long as the angle isn’t more than 12 degrees or so (5-10 is ideal, as a rule of thumb). You do not want the sheet to come in from above, as having the line ride toward the top of the winch is much more likely to overwrap. The exit angle from the winch looks less good. Be sure that when you’re taking the sheet in or out you’re holding the tail at a higher angle and it should keep the wraps around the bottom third of the drum. Also be sure not to have more than a wrap or two when you’re sheeting in fast. Only add one or maybe two more if you need the friction after the sheet is loaded.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,786
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Also don't over do thew number of wraps on the winch itself. I did that on our C22 eons ago and learned to keep them to two or three. I also bought and used Winchers on our C22 & C25.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,010
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
David's comments should help you quite a bit. But your biggest problem, of course, is lack of experience. This will come... the main thing is to read up on sail trim, talk to other sailors, and just get as much time on the water as you can.
In your pic, the sheet to drum entry angle looks satisfactory, although I always recommend a more consistent angle, which can be achieved by mounting a turning block just before or even behind the winch drum. Your boat, like my Catalina 27 has the winches mounted on an outward canting platform that makes the entry angle pretty easy to maintain, but is a PIA when it comes to grinding (turning the handle) and cleating to avoid over rides. I've included a few pics of my set up..... this is after I upgraded to self tailing winches..... but I left the tower mounted cam cleats. They were installed by the previous owner way before I acquired the boat in 1999, and I grew to love them so much, especially when racing, I still use them even though I can cleat the sheet on the winch's jaws. The cleats were mounted on the risers to reduce the likelihood of overrides.

Okay, look at the pictures closely. The blue line is the sheet, it is not tied to the sail, rather just put in place for clarity. At the top of the picture the blue line is tied off to a stanchion (instead of the sail clew) where it runs through the movable lead block... then all the way back to heavier, stationary block that turns the sheet back towards the winch. This angle never changes and provides the line a clean entry on to the drum. I usually leave three wraps on the drum, until it's time to operate... then I add more for heavier work If I'm going to use the self tailing feature, I'll continue loading the drum all the way before setting the sheet in the jaw ring and stripper arm.

BUT...You have standard winches, which actually look like my old Barlow 2 speeds, they're really good machines, by the way. So, three wraps, then over to the cam cleat mounted on the 4 inch riser. There you go. The higher line position on the exit side is what will help you prevent over rides. With the outward canting of the winch and the super low cleat position it's no wonder you'll get so much interference causing over rides. Remember, David said to hold the line high when grinding in the new sheet, but ESPECIALLY when letting the old sheet run out....... IMPORTANT to avoid overrides on the release, pull STRAIGHT UP on the line to strip it off the drum. If you don't the low angle from the cleat will mix with the higher angled drum to lead section... thus... the override.
One more thing. If you go with new, elevated cleats, cam, clam, jam............what ever... don't use a fairlead on the cleat or anywhere between cleat and drum, or between drum and lead block. You want the sheet to NOT be CAPTIVE. It needs to run free, so you can quickly toss it off the winch.

Okey doke, I hope you pick up some perspective with this discussion. Super importantl There's a bunch of stuff you need to learn pretty quicky that will make your sailing experience much more pleasant. You'll learn to let the wind push the sail across the foredeck when tackling. Dpn't try to pull it across with the sheet, it'll likely get the clew knots caught on the shrouds. So when you tack, ease out the sheet a foot or so, as the boat turns wait for the headsail to start backwinding, it'll help get the bow through the turn more smoothly which the helmsman will appreciate. You can pull the slack out of the new sheet, but don't pull the sail until you have tossed the old sheet off the drum as I described earlier. Then hand strip the new sheet and sail into position before you start grinding the final trim position. Smooth looking and it looks salty also.
Another tip. make sure you have tell tales installed on your headsail. They're inexpensive and come with instructions. The telltales show you how the air is flowing over the sails. You can use them to adjust your sails for maximum efficiency and maintain your desired course. You can also use them to steer the boat to its optimal apparent wind angle. They also install tell tales on the leech of the mainsail. Again, the leech tells will come with instructions that tell you how to get the best "twist" on the mainsail... and other things.

I think you would appreciate learning more about sail trim, tell tales, apparent wind direction and apparent wind speed.... and how it relates to true wind speed and true wind direction.... and... how both those phenomena are related to boat speed and boat direction. If you're up for it, may I auggest picking up a copy of Don Gillette's sail trim guide, available here in the SBO store. I also recommend obtaining a copy (used or older edition is fine) of John Rousmaniere's Annapolis Book of Seamanship. The best, IMHO.
Good luck Have fun.IMG_20200918_182756.jpgIMG_20200918_183118.jpg
 
Last edited:
Jan 11, 2014
11,500
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
It is a bit difficult to see in the photo, however it appears the tail is crossing over the sheet, this will apply downward pressure on the wraps. Ideally the tail should be in a straight line with the sheet as it enters the winch. Although in practice any angle less than 180° will work, so long as the tail doesn't cross the sheet.

The solution is to either add a turning block aft of the winch, the sheet then leads aft from the jib through the turning block and back to the winch. Add a cleat aft of the winch to secure the tail.
 
Sep 24, 2021
386
Beneteau 35s5 Telegraph hrbr Thetis Island
Looks like you have self tailing winches.. you needn't use the cam cleat at all. The aft block seems to give you a nicely angled lead to the winch.. the forward block on the rail is adjusted to optimize the trim on the jib to get all telltales to break evenly.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,500
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
A quick observation, some of the recent posts are confusing the photos from the OP, @tailboom with @Joe's response and suggestions. Let's try to focus on the OP's question.
 
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Likes: Gene Neill
Sep 30, 2013
3,546
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
A quick observation, some of the recent posts are confusing the photos from the OP, @tailboom with @Joe's response and suggestions. Let's try to focus on the OP's question.
I'm confused. One of the pics in the OP's post is actually Joe's pic! And in that post, the OP says "My jib lines feed the winch through a car block located toward the aft of the rail (see photo)." Just like Joes pic shows, but not the OP's!

I'm deleting both my posts, I don't understand what the heck is going on here. LOL
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,500
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I'm confused. One of the pics in the OP's post is actually Joe's pic! And in that post, the OP says "My jib lines feed the winch through a car block located toward the aft of the rail (see photo)." Just like Joes pic shows, but not the OP's!

I'm deleting both my posts, I don't understand what the heck is going on here. LOL
The OPs boat has white jib sheets with blue tracers and a standard winch. Joe's boat has blue jib sheets and self-tailing winches.
 
Jan 28, 2023
30
catalina 22 Clinton Marina
Thanks to all for the replies…even a bit of confusion…it makes me feel like I’m sailing (ha ha).

Since I didn’t have this problem when sailing with a crew, I think maybe I’m pulling downward on the “sheets” (used wrong terminology previously) due to trying to simultaneously handle the tiller and work the jib. I’ll try paying more attention to my angle when I’m out next week to see if its operator error.

The winches are Arco 6s and my plan was to install Barton Self Tailing on the existing winches to eliminate the add-on cam cleats (which need to be on stands), but that won’t work unless it bunches upward and I use more wraps.
 
Jul 19, 2013
384
Pearson 31-2 Boston
First make sure your blocks are positioned properly. Your blocks appear pretty far aft, you sailing with a large genoa like a 150%?

For advice, see

FWIW, the sailing world refers to jib lines as sheets. As mentioned above, its important that the sheet leads onto the winch from 5-10 degrees below the plane of the winch. As your gear appears to be Catalina original, I assume the lead angle is not the issue - if it is, you need to raise the bottom of the block relative to the plane of the winch.

You also need to have the sheet lead off the winch at or above the plane of the winch, at the height of the turns. As you are surmising, this circumstance is most likely your problem.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,010
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Well I was afraid of possible confusion. Those pics were take after I upgraded to the self tailing winches. Before I had 2 speed Barlow standards. So.... I totally understand how ST winches work. Obviously, I do not use the cam cleats when I'm using the winch jaws to secure the sheet. I was just trying to show the poster my set up when I had the standard winches. In truth, if racing I prefer the standard set up, using the riser mounted cam cleats. Lot faster to get the line on and off the drum without messing with the jaw ring, you just snap it down or up snap to release. I still often use the riser mounted cleats, it's just way more convenient when tacking back and forth and I don't need to grind in the sheet. (it's a small boat, most times I can hand strip the line as the boat goes through the turn.)

The cross over look is caused by the line going through the turning block to reach the winch. On the starboard side it disappears when uncleated.
The port side doesn't have the cross over because the line enters from outside and exits from the inside.

If you notice, I have the Garhaurer EZ glide lead system. Installing the turning block aft was an attempt to help that system work better, which it did. It just makes it easier to move the sliding car backwards.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,010
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Thanks to all for the replies…even a bit of confusion…it makes me feel like I’m sailing (ha ha).

Since I didn’t have this problem when sailing with a crew, I think maybe I’m pulling downward on the “sheets” (used wrong terminology previously) due to trying to simultaneously handle the tiller and work the jib. I’ll try paying more attention to my angle when I’m out next week to see if its operator error.

The winches are Arco 6s and my plan was to install Barton Self Tailing on the existing winches to eliminate the add-on cam cleats (which need to be on stands), but that won’t work unless it bunches upward and I use more wraps.
I know there's one poster here who likes those blue rubber tailer things, but...... I do not... they will not work the way you think they will, especially for sheet winching. They help a bit with halyard operation, but they are cumbersome on sheet winches. The problem is there is no mechanism to strip the line off the winch The little grippy ribs underneath pull the line, but the drum must be fully loaded to work... that's like 6 or 7 wraps. Regular self tailing winches use the "jaws" to advance the line to a stripper arm that peels the line from the drum allowing more line to enter from the bottom. "Winchers" do not. They are just rubber cleats. So, friend, they don't replace real self tailing winches. Don't waste your money.

What you can do is learn to steer your boat with the tiller between your knees. You can control the sheets by hand, (especially if you have them in NON CAPTIVE cam cleats) while you control the boat with your knees. That's why those cleats on my boat are so effective.
The other thing you should consider is investing in a tiller pilot.. Raymaring or Simrad (I have simrad, but they work the same ) That's way more important than spending $100 on useless rubber rings. Sorry Stu... but you started it:):):)
 
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Likes: Gene Neill
Jan 11, 2014
11,500
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
What you can do is learn to steer your boat with the tiller between your knees.
If the tiller will reach, I found using the small of my back to be more effective. And an autopilot is a wonderful thing. It was one of the first electronic devices I put on my Tanzer 22 way back in 1984.
 
Aug 2, 2010
503
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Too many wraps before the tension comes on. Try two wraps only which should let you take all the load then when you need to winch add the extra wraps and feed into self-tailer portion.