jib clew sheet attachement revisited

[Roger (Ninette Manitoba)]

My apologies for revitalizing this thread, as I did not get a answer to my query as to the type of knot I use for my sheet attachment. Attached is a picture that I finally found yesterday. I have seen this arrangement rarely, as cow hitches, larks heads and bowlines seem to predominate.

The advantage of this 'knot' is that it is easily changed out if for instance you use the same sheets for a drifter or storm sail, or have frequent head sail changes.

Let me know what you call this knot.

 

[Ross]

Without the clew in there it would draw up like a square knot. I am not sure that Ashley even lists it. I have seen lines joined in that manner but with a loop pushed through the eye and a toggle in place. Knocking out the toggle releases the lines. I fail to see any advantage to this arrangement versus several others but if it serves you and you are pleased with it by all means continue to use it.

 

[Roger (Ninette Manitoba)]

its a lousey picture Ross, but

I think it is what you are talking about in your second description in that it is a lashed loop with a toggle. Like I say, I am still looking for a name for this type of attachment as I have seen it a few times in books and in practice. Here is another view of that 'knot'.

You can see where the lashed loop passes through the clew from left to right, and the short piece of toggle, essentially a line with loop and tail that where the loop of the toggle is permanently captured by the lashed loop of the sheet, and the thumb of the toggle passes through the lashed loop on the right side of the clew.

Anyone have a name for this knot?

 

[sailingdog]

Without the clew in there it would draw up like a square knot. I am not sure that Ashley even lists it. I have seen lines joined in that manner but with a loop pushed through the eye and a toggle in place. Knocking out the toggle releases the lines. I fail to see any advantage to this arrangement versus several others but if it serves you and you are pleased with it by all means continue to use it.

The major advantage of this over a cow hitch is that to use the sheets on a different sail, you don't have to pull one of the sheets out and un-tie the cow hitch, then re-tie the cow hitch and run the sheet back to the cockpit. It gives you the ease of using bowlines on a single line for both sheets.

 

[Roger (Ninette Manitoba)]

Brian Toss has an almost similar configuration, (without lashed loop and separate toggle) that he calls a Knute hitch, but again it is significantly different that I would only call it a distant cousin to this knot... The mystery continues as to the name of this knot or hitch.

 

[Ross]

Is this one continous line?

 

[Roger (Ninette Manitoba)]

Brian Toss' knute hitch is one continuous line, but mine is a lashed loop with a separate line lashed alongside the first lashing. The toggle from this short line acts as the lock when the lashed loop is passed through the clew.

 

[knowitall]

Do you see it on this site?

http://www.animatedknots.com/indexboating.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=

 

[ITMaster]

The Bowline continues to be an easy knot for me to tie, and untie. It doesn't matter how tight and wet it has been and for how long it has been tied, for me it is still quite easy to untie quickly.

To be able to untie it quickly and to change out sail if I had to, and to retie without having to route sheets in and out of the fairleads, it's a no brainer.


Like everything else we do, what ever works for you and floats your boat, it is the right thing to do

 

[Roger (Ninette Manitoba)]

to knowitall: No I did not see it on that site. Thanks a million people. It seems odd that on a forum where there can be fairly diverse views, lots of input, and VERY knowledgable people, I seem to have posed a question re the name of this knot, that no one has been able to identify. Its just not every day that the whole brain trust is stumped. Thanks anyhow folks.

 

[All U Get]

Hi Roger,
Whatever anyone uses, eventually the line at the bend becomes weak. My experience with climbing rope is to check it where the knots were tied for deformities. I cut away my bowlines at the end of the season to have a "fresh" end for next season. I even swap end-for-end to even the wear over the length of the line. Some knot links talk about care and cleaning as well as which knot reduces the strength of your lines by percentages. Using your toggle on a bight appears to be the least bend in the line and perhaps better if you don't mind splicing an eye occasionally. My clew is larger to allow the end of my wisker pole to attach to the sail when running. I'm up for trying your thoughts next season.
All U Get

 

[Paul J. Rusyniak]

Roger...

A sailor in our marina uses a similar "hitch" for the exact same reason you state, although I don't think he whipped the bight.

He's already headed south for winter (lucky dog!!!). If you don't have your answer by next spring, bring it up again and I'll ask him.

Paul

 

[Ross]

to knowitall: No I did not see it on that site. Thanks a million people. It seems odd that on a forum where there can be fairly diverse views, lots of input, and VERY knowledgable people, I seem to have posed a question re the name of this knot, that no one has been able to identify. Its just not every day that the whole brain trust is stumped. Thanks anyhow folks.

You named it as a "knute" knot or hitch but all of the references that I have seen use a knute knot on the end of a line to secure it to a tool or some such. I won't deny the utility of the knot and if it serves you well then use it.

 

[Paul J. Rusyniak]

Roger and Ross...
This really bugs me that I can find so many references to the knute hitch, but so few actual articles.
Any chance that the knute hitch and cow hitch with toggle are the same (or very closely related)?
I did find this photo at one of the website references, identified as a knute hitch, and used to secure a tool.
Paul

 

[Ross]

Roger and Ross...
This really bugs me that I can find so many references to the knute hitch, but so few actual articles.
Any chance that the knute hitch and cow hitch with toggle are the same (or very closely related)?
I did find this photo at one of the website references, identified as a knute hitch, and used to secure a tool.
Paul

Paul , The knute hitch and the cow hitch aren't even close cousins. The knute hitch is closer to a sheet bend with the tool being half of the knot.
Rather like the buntline hitch being close to a clove hitch but tied to the standing part.

 

[Roger (Ninette Manitoba)]

paul, I just checked my jib sheets downstairs...

I had thought I had left them on the boat but indeed they were here at home. Anyhow, the loop is not lashed as I had previously indicated; just a simple overhand knot that creates a loop. Captive to this loop is the toggle line. It seems there are a lot of variations on this theme, and a number of people using those variations for different reasons; securing lanyards to tools, jib sheets to job clew, etc..

For the record, here is a picture of my set up.

 

[sailingdog]

Roger-

tying an overhand knot like that to form the loop will radically weaken the rope there. A figure eight knot would do much the same and do less damage to the rope.

 

[paulj]

I had thought I had left them on the boat but indeed they were here at home. Anyhow, the loop is not lashed as I had previously indicated; just a simple overhand knot that creates a loop. Captive to this loop is the toggle line. It seems there are a lot of variations on this theme, and a number of people using those variations for different reasons; securing lanyards to tools, jib sheets to job clew, etc..

For the record, here is a picture of my set up.

In the 60's I remember that knot being called a LAP KNOT.
The knot is for ease of use with cold hands before we had quick release shackles. The wear and tear is nomore or noless than any other knot.

paulj:troll:

 

[Roger Long]

If you are willing to put eye splices in your sheets and want an attachement that will minimize snagging on stays, you can do it this way:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~rlma/Strider06work.htm#Jibsheets

 

[Paul J. Rusyniak]

I know many of you think this subject has been beaten in the ground (and beyond), but I learned some new stuff from this time around and am grateful to those who chose to make positive contributions.
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving!!!
Paul