Is Stiffness Really a Good Thing

[Gary Wyngarden]

Over the years I've read many boat reviews and other comments generally applauding the virtues of stiffness in boat design. Last weekend I was rafted up with several other boats at a friend's birthday celebration. We noted that the mast on my 37.5 was 6 feet higher than that of his Valiant 40. This got us into a general discussion of stiffness.Clearly his Valiant can carry its full sail area at higher wind velocities than my Hunter 37.5 can. But the flip side is that my boat is faster in the light to moderate wind we normally sail in. The Valiant is optimized for long distance blue water cruising , and my 37.5 is optimized for coastal cruising so this is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.But it seems to me that the design selections that make a boat stiffer, e.g. deeper keel, more ballast, more displacement, shorter mast, lower sail area/displacement ratio also make a boat slower in light to moderate air. Wouldn't you rather sail fast in light air and just reef when the wind picked up as opposed to paying for not having to reef as soon by sailing slower in light air?I'd be interested in your thoughts.Gary WyngardenS/V Wanderlust h37.5

 

[larry w]

APPLES TO ORANGES

You pretty much answered your own question, but there's this; the Valiant can do both, blue-water and coastal, but the Hunter can only do coastal.

 

[Warren Milberg]

I have to admit

that my preferences in boat design are the old-fashioned boats with long fore and aft overhangs, full keels with attached rudder, and heavy displacement. They just look right. These are very sea kindly boats that can go just about anywhere in just about any conditions. But who does? If I were a live aboard going on long cruises, I'd want -- and have -- one of these kinds of boats. But I'm now mostly a day sailor who cruises the bay, overnights on weekends, maybe takes a longish coastal cruise every few years. What I want is boat optimized for how I use it 99 per cent of the time, not for the other 1 per cent. Every now and then I see one of those blue water cruisers on the Chesapeake (mostly I see them sitting idly in their slips...) and I can sail circles around them. But if the winds kicked up to 25 or more kts, with waves of 4 ft or more, they would be circling me -- as I'd be back in my slip or sipping a cool one at anchor in some secure creek....Your boat has to fit how and where you use it.

 

[KennyH]

This is some of it but you also have wave action

Wave action is what really comes into play offshore. You can have a multitude of different wave actions that work on your boat. You really appreciate stiffness when you are caught in a front with high winds and confused seas. Boat design with stiffness becomes the most inportant thing on your mind and the valiant 40 would do nicely.

 

[KorculaChris]

Warren is exactly on the mark, as usual!

Stiff versus tender?Use the boat for how it is designed. There's no point in creeping about in a stiff ocean sailing boat if you never leave sight of land. Conversely, you're a lunatic if you try to cross an ocean in a Hunter 26...but Contessa 26s still do, and safely. Use the boat for what it was designed to do.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Let's not forget about the skipper/crew.

I favor fast designs. Look at what ALL of the worlds race boats do; fast, stiff, and light. They take anything that's thrown at them as long as the skipper knows what he's(or she's) doing. Now, some of us don't like the latest and greatest boats. Why is that? Is it because we don't have one? Or we started sailing in the old stuff and it 'just looks right'? The ultimate safety feature of any sailboat is speed. Fast means that you have a better chance of avoiding the gnarly stuff. And if that boat gets caught anyway, well, there's always heaving-to.I remember an article in one of the national magazines about 20 years ago. They set out to determine stability under adverse conditions between the newest designs and the previous generation of 'stiffies' like the Valiant and the Morgan OI 41. It was no contest. The old boats lost. I recall that the parameters that made the difference were buoyancy and righting-moment. A rouge wave would roll the older designs more easily.And another consideration is that with todays electronic systems of forecasting, getting caught in storm conditions is very rare. Even before such systems many sailors reported that for an entire circumnavigation they encountered no storms at sea. It's called 'planning'. Consult the pilot-charts and don't be where the bad stuff is during the time it's likely to strike. Like that cat that was lost this winter off the Oregon coast. Don't do that!

 

[tom]

No Sails Conditions

There are also no sails up conditions. My brothers first boat was a Bucanner 28 and it was crap. Even in a lake it wasn't much of a boat and he sold it after about 1 year. In a lake I was motoring with no sails and a gust heeled that boat enough to pull the outboard out of the water. Imagine that boat out at sea..it's scarey. The Valiant would probably survive undamaged in storms that would sink or damage lesser boats.  But it is like driving a Hummer when you never get off of the freeway in southern CA. If you are a coastal sailer a lighter faster boat makes sense. But even coastal sailing a Valiant will let you sail on days a lighter boat would be struggling. Of course with the lighter boat you can sail when the Valiant may have to resort to motoring.  Someday they may have sailboats with retractable masts and water ballast. On light wind days empty the tanks and raise the masts high. When it's rough lower the masts and fill the tanks.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Tom, let me tell a story.

He-he. About 15 years ago my wife and I were tied to the outside breakwater of our present marina. It was blowing like stink. Well, OK, just 25 knots out of the south. We were on the protected side of the breakwater with our Hunter 34. We were enjoying a summer afternoon. A cutter-rigged Tayana 37 passed off our bow with full sails up. He was close-hauled and looking good. Two old timers were standing on the dock within ear shot. One said to the other "Now that is my kind of boat! Stiff and able to stand up in a blow!". I looked at my wife and we smiled at each other. We sprung into action and made ready. We untied, set a double-reefed main and half of the genoa and PASSED the Tayana in less than a mile. Nothing to it. Just your average H34.Later that summer we buddie boated with the same model Tayana to Porta Valliarta Mexico. There was nothing at sea that our boat didn't do better than the Tayana 37.

 

[Ross]

I wonder why on the East coast we get small craft

advisories when the wind is at twenty-five, but on the West coast some folk find that just right? Does the wind blow differently on one coast than on the other?

 

[tweitz]

East coast vs west coast small craft advisories

Thicker air?

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Ross, probably not.

When we chased down the Tayana from the marina, we were on inland waters. The fetch was small so waves were less. And to be honest, that little race was a game of ours that we had done many times. We would spot a big, old stiff cruiser and catch it before a certain 'mark'. Great fun. But when the ocean reared it's ugly head our boat only made us proud-er. After the trip down the coast I took the boat through the Panama Canal and up to Florida before cruising the Eastern Caribbean. I made sure to be there during the 'right' time of year so conditions were benign.In short, the Pacific off of the northwest coast is just plain ugly even with little wind. Most sailors avoid it.

 

[Jeff]

Humor

Fred, when you said, "'Stiff and able to stand up in a blow!'. I looked at my wife and we smiled at each other." I thought you were smiling for a different reason.Ross, the wind is the same speed, ours is just a little more laid back.

 

[Ross]

I know that when we get 25 from the south on

the bay the fetch is over a hundred miles with enough cliffs and bends to make very steep confused seas. It ain't pretty.

 

[BarryL]

stiff and fast?

Hello,I'm not an expert but I don't believe that a stiff boat has to be a slow boat, or that a tender boat must be a fast boat.Isn't a deep draft fin keel boat stiffer than a shoal draft boat?Wouldn't the deep draft fin keel boat also be faster than theshoal keel? Doesn't the hull design have an effect too? I believe that a wideboat is siffer than a narrow boat. So a wide boat with a deep keep (with a bulb on the end) would be faster in heavy AND light air than a narrow shoal or full keelboat. And it would be able to carry more sail too.Someone correct me if I'm wrong.Thanks,Barry

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Not an expert Barry?

That post sounded pretty good to me.

 

[tom]

OK Ross Defend full Keel Boats

Hi Fred ; I went to sail-calculator and compared the Tayana 37 cutter with the Hunter 34. By every measure the Tayana appears a better boat for ocean sailing. Maybe you are just a superior sailer. A full keel boat would have more wetted area and the Tayana weighs about twice as much. I was really surprised that the motion comfort index was a 40!!!! The Hunter out performing in lighter airs was no surprise but that it out performed when it was rough seems strange. Of course part of thr reason for a full keel is that your rudder is stronger and the boat supposedly tracks better. The only Hunter that I've sailed was a 30 that we chartered for a week in the keys. It was really a disappointment performance wise. Maybe the Tayana had 5" oysters on the hull. I'd like to hear Robert Perry's comments.Robert Perry where are you??? They are trashing your boat designs!!!

 

[Fred Ficarra]

And Tom,,,,,,,

You should have seen us side by side at 0200 hours powering out of the Straight of Juan de Fuca. His bow sprit (optional) made his boat nose-dive after every wave. Took water with each one. We made it just fine. Not a single wave came over the bow. But he did make it the next day. We waited for him in Neah Bay.And those Tayanas are too directionally stable. Ever try to turn one while backing? They WILL NOT change direction.And his bottom was clean. He 'careened' just before we left.Also the H34 and her sisters were an IOR design that was made to be sailed. Don't confuse them with the new bleach-bottles.

 

[Ross]

Tom , There is no need for me to attempt

a defence of hull designs. C.J. Marchaj and Danny Greene in their books did it in about 400 pages. Green did "Cruising Sailboat Kenetics" and Marchaj did "Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor. Lyle Hess did some pretty decent designs that have proved their mettle. We must not over look Chuck Paine and Fred Bingham and there have been many others that designed great boats but didn't have the marketing staff that the more well known boat enjoy.

 

[Fred]

I have owned a narrow, deep English Cutter,

(Vertue)and a Newport 30 right after the Vertue. I think stiffness these days refers to what I call "form stability". The Newport 30, a Gary Mull design, has a wide stern that "supresses the quarter wave" which keeps the boat from squatting aft as she goes faster, and the Newport is 11 feet wide with less weight than the (my version) 27 foot 8 foot beam Vertue.The Newport had so much more room! I liked it a lot, and I would not consider a heavy narrow boat these days.The Newport was a lot stiffer and drier. On a reach, much faster, almost sort of planing in good conditions.I sailed to windward across the Strait of Juan de Fuca against a genuine 40 knot gale in the Vertue. It was wet, and I mean wet, but she and I loved it, because the boat went to windward through the big seas like a greyhound.I wouldn't even try that in a modern, stiff boat, but I'm older and stiffer myself. I probably wouldn't do it in a Vertue either.

 

[RichH]

Differences .....

Gary Stiffness is not a characteristic of the Perry etc. designed cutters: Valiant, Baba, Tashiba, Tayana, etc. etc. Most all these 'designs' have a Length to beam ratio of somewhere 3:1; quite narrow in comparison to the more modern 'sled' standards. These boats are initially tender to about 15-20 degrees over and only then stiffen up .... which yields a kindly 'sea-motion'. Over 20 degrees (especially the full keel versions) and they begin to slip to leeward; hence (and yes indeed), the first reef (or radical flattening) goes in at about 18kts. "Stiffness" for more modern boats comes primarily (probably) from form stability (wide beam) rather than weight. A heavier boat wont or cant accelerate out of a tack as fast as a light weight; plus, these arent as 'easily driven hulls' so they must carry more weight aloft (weight again) as spars and larger sail area. There are benefits of 'heavy' especially when on passage as their slower roll periods leave one less tired out and beaten up ... called "sea-kindly". Also, these boats are designed as cutters and therefore not for upwind perfomance (as a sloop) but from beam reach on down, specifically for long haul, days/weeks on end - tradewind sailing. This is where the staysail rigged boats outperform most other designs. The weight in these boats comes from the robust design .... safety factor of 'strength of materials' of approx. 6:1 instead of the 'usual' 2.5-3:1 for a 'coastal' design; that's why such a blue water boat can withstand a battering for days on end and where a coastal boat held long in storm conditions simply falls apart. Sure, light weight and constant reefing up and down can accomplish a level playing field .... but that gets real old and quickly tiring on a passage. Better to just leave it and press on ... in comfort. Once you make hull speed it makes NO difference how much or little sail you have up. Fred - Not to pick on your friend but if a Tayana is hobbyhorsing as you describe; then, by removing many hundreds of pounds of windlass, chain, stowage, and fuel from the bow, etc. getting the boat back to it proper weight/trim and loading distribution, he'd have given you much less ego satisfaction... as he's got a longer waterline length -- and if a full ~1200 sq. ft. 'up', should have left you well 'back in the chop'. A loaded bow is great for downwind but certainly just the opposite for beating. You're obviously not telling the other half of the story or do you only 'ambush race' upwind? Sloops are always better upwind because of their much tighter tacking angles ----- too bad that you wernt 'racing' downwind (in 25+) as Im sure even with his higher PHRF rating (174 vs. ~145) but longer waterline length he'd have left you far behind in his wake. Its always fun to watch an IOR 'broach coach' struggling downwind with a full press of sail on; ..... a leisurely Sunday morning breakfast in a cutter. ;-)