I thought that I needed an insurance survey every ten years. I just got a letter from my insurance company (Royal) demanding a survey before renewing my policy. The boat is an '83 H34, and it was surveyed in 1993. When I questionned why they are doing this, they said that because of the age of the boat, they now required a survey every 5 years. My question is - is this the industry norm? Since I've got to get the survey done anyway, I will look into changing insurers - I have asked for quotes from BoatUS and West Marine. Has anybody had experience with these and Defender - do you know how frequently these companies require surveys? Derek
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Pete
insurance
try the Pier Group in New Haven Ct. they have a program for Hunter owners with the underwriter being Zurich Insurance 800 652 5116
try the Pier Group in New Haven Ct. they have a program for Hunter owners with the underwriter being Zurich Insurance 800 652 5116
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Barry Olsen
Try Allstate - Doesn't get any Better
When I got my h34 6-7 years ago I ran into the survey thing trying BOATUS. Allstate has never asked for a survey ever. They never looked at the boat. They insure it for $30k on Lake Champlain for about $160/year. The price was over $190 but they reduced it after I took the USPS course. Had one claim - about $1000 - great service and no rate change. Barry s/v "PER DIEM too"
When I got my h34 6-7 years ago I ran into the survey thing trying BOATUS. Allstate has never asked for a survey ever. They never looked at the boat. They insure it for $30k on Lake Champlain for about $160/year. The price was over $190 but they reduced it after I took the USPS course. Had one claim - about $1000 - great service and no rate change. Barry s/v "PER DIEM too"
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Paul Akers
Met Life?
A life insurance company? Yup, I said the same thing. I have my homeowners with them, so I gave them a call. Got the best deal and it includes a towing package. Didn't have to get a survey. Plus they are right in your own town.
A life insurance company? Yup, I said the same thing. I have my homeowners with them, so I gave them a call. Got the best deal and it includes a towing package. Didn't have to get a survey. Plus they are right in your own town.
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Mickey Goodman
Alstate Insurance
I also have Alstate as my insurance company. They didn't ask for a survey when I insured the boat. I have a 88 Legend 37 and the premium is significantly more than the $180 Barry quoted. Barry, let me have your agents number! My boat had a cabin fire which my agent was aware of and new that I was reconstructing the boat. But again, no survey request.
I also have Alstate as my insurance company. They didn't ask for a survey when I insured the boat. I have a 88 Legend 37 and the premium is significantly more than the $180 Barry quoted. Barry, let me have your agents number! My boat had a cabin fire which my agent was aware of and new that I was reconstructing the boat. But again, no survey request.
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Frank Pratt
What kind of Insurance
Marine insurance is available in both Actual Cash Value (ACV) versions and Agreed Upon Hull Cost versions. The ACV policy is generaly less expensive to purchase but it will pay only the depriciated value of the boat at the time of the loss. The ageed upon hull value pays the amount you and your insurance company agreed upon when you insured the boat. Ageed upon value policies usally have increased coverage in othe area's also such as automatic coverage for tenders and outboards. Check with your local agent as they may be able to tailor a policy for your needs. BTW Farmers Insurance offers 3 levels of coverage depending upon your needs. Your Friendly Farmers Agent and sailor
Marine insurance is available in both Actual Cash Value (ACV) versions and Agreed Upon Hull Cost versions. The ACV policy is generaly less expensive to purchase but it will pay only the depriciated value of the boat at the time of the loss. The ageed upon hull value pays the amount you and your insurance company agreed upon when you insured the boat. Ageed upon value policies usally have increased coverage in othe area's also such as automatic coverage for tenders and outboards. Check with your local agent as they may be able to tailor a policy for your needs. BTW Farmers Insurance offers 3 levels of coverage depending upon your needs. Your Friendly Farmers Agent and sailor
I believe that Allstate
requires a survey if the boat is over 10 or 12 years old (the first time it is insured). These rates are not set by agents but by the computer systems. If you get different rates for the same boat in the same location, it is probably because one agent is not giving all the information or is falsifying info to get your business. Be careful, because you may end up under insured or not insured at all when it's time to file that claim. There is more than just the price you pay for the insurance. That is not to say that you cannot get better insurance for less.
requires a survey if the boat is over 10 or 12 years old (the first time it is insured). These rates are not set by agents but by the computer systems. If you get different rates for the same boat in the same location, it is probably because one agent is not giving all the information or is falsifying info to get your business. Be careful, because you may end up under insured or not insured at all when it's time to file that claim. There is more than just the price you pay for the insurance. That is not to say that you cannot get better insurance for less.
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Bill Sheehy
Be Very Careful with the Hands People
We had a boat fire 2 years ago. Some of you may remeber it. When the fire investor came out to look at it he said I have good news and bad news. I asked whats the good news first. He said you didn't set the fire. I said that I knew that now whats the bad news. He said that you were $13k under insured. When I first got the boat I had tried to get it insured for what it was worth not what I paid for it. The agent wouldn't do it. If you have home owners with them they will only cover the personal property for 10% of what is covered at home. I had tried to get more insurance to cover everything on the boat but was told I didn't need it. That I had enough coverage. We did get it covered but it was a fight. Remeber you get what you pay for. If you have a smaller boat then cheap insurance is ok. I pay thru the nose now but I am covered for just about anything. We also liveaboard so we need the extra insurance.
We had a boat fire 2 years ago. Some of you may remeber it. When the fire investor came out to look at it he said I have good news and bad news. I asked whats the good news first. He said you didn't set the fire. I said that I knew that now whats the bad news. He said that you were $13k under insured. When I first got the boat I had tried to get it insured for what it was worth not what I paid for it. The agent wouldn't do it. If you have home owners with them they will only cover the personal property for 10% of what is covered at home. I had tried to get more insurance to cover everything on the boat but was told I didn't need it. That I had enough coverage. We did get it covered but it was a fight. Remeber you get what you pay for. If you have a smaller boat then cheap insurance is ok. I pay thru the nose now but I am covered for just about anything. We also liveaboard so we need the extra insurance.
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Al
I Have Boat US
insurance. The same thing happened to me last year. I had insurance with Ocean Underwriters. They contacted me demanding the 1982 Watkins I own be resurveyed. I resurveyed the boat and changed the insurance company to Boat US. The new policy turned out to be better coverage with a lower catastrophic deductable(I live in Florida) for just a small increase in premium. Good luck- A.B.
insurance. The same thing happened to me last year. I had insurance with Ocean Underwriters. They contacted me demanding the 1982 Watkins I own be resurveyed. I resurveyed the boat and changed the insurance company to Boat US. The new policy turned out to be better coverage with a lower catastrophic deductable(I live in Florida) for just a small increase in premium. Good luck- A.B.
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Wayne Estabrooks
Insurance Survey Requirements
I purchased a 1982 Seidelmann 295 in 1989 and had it surveyed for my own information prior to the purchase. I voluntarily provided a copy of the survey to Boat / US and they then sent me a letter asking I repair the items pointed out in the survey needing attention. They never asked for another survey and I traded the Seidelmann for my new H340 in 1997. They did not ask for a Survey of the 340. I am very pleased with Boat/US insurance. I had 2 claims with them on the Seidelmann and one last year on the H340. They have been great!
I purchased a 1982 Seidelmann 295 in 1989 and had it surveyed for my own information prior to the purchase. I voluntarily provided a copy of the survey to Boat / US and they then sent me a letter asking I repair the items pointed out in the survey needing attention. They never asked for another survey and I traded the Seidelmann for my new H340 in 1997. They did not ask for a Survey of the 340. I am very pleased with Boat/US insurance. I had 2 claims with them on the Seidelmann and one last year on the H340. They have been great!
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Patrick Ewing
Different kinds of insurance
As I understand it, there are different kinds of boat insurance. One kind is like your car insurance - mostly liability and some depreciated value for the boat. This kind of insurance doesn't cover any of the costs you may incur for protecting the boat such as towing you away from or off of the rocks. Safeco told me that if the boat was at risk, save myself and crew and let the boat sink. They insured my previous boat which was only 27 ft. They would not reimburse me for any expenses incurred to save the boat even minor ones and the boats value depreciated every year. A yacht policy will cover many additional problems beyond just those. I have a neighbor who had a big claim for rotten wood in the transom of his wooden boat which was paid. Another fellow hit a log and got that fixed under his policy. I think they replaced everything in the drive train including his engines and I dont't think that it cost him anything. There are a lot of other issues like depreciated values, wreck removal, pollution liability, salvage, and liabilities under the Jones Act etc. most of which are not covered under the cheaper policies. Some of those things are admittedly not as important to the owner of a small boat but laws and other issues are not as simple as those involving cars. Our policy is about $650 per year for a very good yacht policy. That is the best coverage we could find. We were quoted about $180 per year under Boat US and West Marine for their policies but wanted the better coverage since we have a previously damaged boat which was actually totalled by Allstate at one time. I guess I agree that you get what you pay for. We have had no claims in over 10 years but I don't worry about it either. Maybe someone in the "business" will explain it better than I have. Patrick
As I understand it, there are different kinds of boat insurance. One kind is like your car insurance - mostly liability and some depreciated value for the boat. This kind of insurance doesn't cover any of the costs you may incur for protecting the boat such as towing you away from or off of the rocks. Safeco told me that if the boat was at risk, save myself and crew and let the boat sink. They insured my previous boat which was only 27 ft. They would not reimburse me for any expenses incurred to save the boat even minor ones and the boats value depreciated every year. A yacht policy will cover many additional problems beyond just those. I have a neighbor who had a big claim for rotten wood in the transom of his wooden boat which was paid. Another fellow hit a log and got that fixed under his policy. I think they replaced everything in the drive train including his engines and I dont't think that it cost him anything. There are a lot of other issues like depreciated values, wreck removal, pollution liability, salvage, and liabilities under the Jones Act etc. most of which are not covered under the cheaper policies. Some of those things are admittedly not as important to the owner of a small boat but laws and other issues are not as simple as those involving cars. Our policy is about $650 per year for a very good yacht policy. That is the best coverage we could find. We were quoted about $180 per year under Boat US and West Marine for their policies but wanted the better coverage since we have a previously damaged boat which was actually totalled by Allstate at one time. I guess I agree that you get what you pay for. We have had no claims in over 10 years but I don't worry about it either. Maybe someone in the "business" will explain it better than I have. Patrick
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Jim Kolstoe
Obligation to survey
Derek, You started a very interesting thread. But I think your original question was whether you were obligated to have your boat surveyd for the insurace company. I don't claim to be an admiralty lawyer, but I don't believe that there is a statutory, regulatory or common law obliagation to get a survey. On the other hand, there is no obligation on the insurance company to issue a policy of insurance where the proposed insured is not willing to meet their requirements actually related to the contract. Remember, the primary feature of a contract is that it involves the mutual agreement of the parties. You don't have to agree to the survey, but they don't have to issue an insurance policy on your boat. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Derek, You started a very interesting thread. But I think your original question was whether you were obligated to have your boat surveyd for the insurace company. I don't claim to be an admiralty lawyer, but I don't believe that there is a statutory, regulatory or common law obliagation to get a survey. On the other hand, there is no obligation on the insurance company to issue a policy of insurance where the proposed insured is not willing to meet their requirements actually related to the contract. Remember, the primary feature of a contract is that it involves the mutual agreement of the parties. You don't have to agree to the survey, but they don't have to issue an insurance policy on your boat. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
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Frank Pratt
Policy Language Dictates
Read your policy, it is the legal doucument that obligates the insurance company to pay for all covered losses, reading between the lines this means that if its not in the policy then its not covered. There is also a clause in most policies that obligates the insured to provide at no cost to the insurer a marine survey upon request. Each insurers underwriting department uses a set of guidelines to determine when a new survey may be needed. The most common reason is to update the known status of a boat as it ages. If the owner has kept up maintenance and replaced worn parts then a survey is an affirmation that the agreed upon value is still valid, if the vessel does not meet aceptable standards then the company may deline to insure it, this process of underwriting keeps a company solvent and allows it to pay it's claims . Bottom line is if the survey clause is in your policy then you are obligated to provide it. Companies tend not to ask to often because they know how easy it is to shop your insurance around with a fresh survey.
Read your policy, it is the legal doucument that obligates the insurance company to pay for all covered losses, reading between the lines this means that if its not in the policy then its not covered. There is also a clause in most policies that obligates the insured to provide at no cost to the insurer a marine survey upon request. Each insurers underwriting department uses a set of guidelines to determine when a new survey may be needed. The most common reason is to update the known status of a boat as it ages. If the owner has kept up maintenance and replaced worn parts then a survey is an affirmation that the agreed upon value is still valid, if the vessel does not meet aceptable standards then the company may deline to insure it, this process of underwriting keeps a company solvent and allows it to pay it's claims . Bottom line is if the survey clause is in your policy then you are obligated to provide it. Companies tend not to ask to often because they know how easy it is to shop your insurance around with a fresh survey.
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David McKie
Vessel Survey
I don't understand all the resistance to a survey that is present in this thread. A survey is an inexpensive way to provide some peace of mind concerning the safety of captain and crew. I have never surveyed a vessel that I did not have at least one finding concerning the safety of a vessel. Remember a survey is the condition of the vessel only at the time of the survey. A lot happens in a short period of time. Happy Sailing!
I don't understand all the resistance to a survey that is present in this thread. A survey is an inexpensive way to provide some peace of mind concerning the safety of captain and crew. I have never surveyed a vessel that I did not have at least one finding concerning the safety of a vessel. Remember a survey is the condition of the vessel only at the time of the survey. A lot happens in a short period of time. Happy Sailing!
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hp
Insurance-Surveys
I had the same problem with USAA when I bought a 1988 28.5, even though they had insured two previous boats for me. I bought insurance thru West Marine with no survey required.
I had the same problem with USAA when I bought a 1988 28.5, even though they had insured two previous boats for me. I bought insurance thru West Marine with no survey required.
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Derek Rowell
Partial answer to my original question...
Wow, I didn't expect this response to my original question. Here's the status as of today (Saturday 5/20}: (1) I have received a quote from West Marine. I called them, and they said that they DO NOT (and will not in the future) require a survey if the boat is currently insured (it is). Excellent! (2) I have requested a quote from BoatUS via their web site (www.boatus.com) - not received yet. However I called them, and they said it is their policy to require an initial condition and valuation (C&V) survey for a boat over 10 years old if it is kept in salt water. However, they said that if they ever require another survey it would be at THEIR EXPENSE. Not bad! (3) I have requested a quote via the web, and left a voice-mail request for survey info at Defender (www.defenderus.comr. No response yet. So the question is - how is West Marine as an insurer? I hear good things about BoatUS. I am really annoyed at my current insurer (Royal). When I reread their letter, I found that they require a "dry-dock" survey - even more expense. I've been with them for 19 years with my previous boat as well (Beneteau 30E), and not a single claim. Derek
Wow, I didn't expect this response to my original question. Here's the status as of today (Saturday 5/20}: (1) I have received a quote from West Marine. I called them, and they said that they DO NOT (and will not in the future) require a survey if the boat is currently insured (it is). Excellent! (2) I have requested a quote from BoatUS via their web site (www.boatus.com) - not received yet. However I called them, and they said it is their policy to require an initial condition and valuation (C&V) survey for a boat over 10 years old if it is kept in salt water. However, they said that if they ever require another survey it would be at THEIR EXPENSE. Not bad! (3) I have requested a quote via the web, and left a voice-mail request for survey info at Defender (www.defenderus.comr. No response yet. So the question is - how is West Marine as an insurer? I hear good things about BoatUS. I am really annoyed at my current insurer (Royal). When I reread their letter, I found that they require a "dry-dock" survey - even more expense. I've been with them for 19 years with my previous boat as well (Beneteau 30E), and not a single claim. Derek
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Al
David
Many boat owners are quite capable of determineing the repair needs of their vessels without the aid of a surveyor. If an owner is confident in the condition of his boat, it would be only natural that he would resist the additional expense and hassle of another survey.
Many boat owners are quite capable of determineing the repair needs of their vessels without the aid of a surveyor. If an owner is confident in the condition of his boat, it would be only natural that he would resist the additional expense and hassle of another survey.
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Clyde Lichtenwalner
Boats US
I have been insured via Boats US for 18 years (same boat) with no claims. Policy is agreed value. They asked for a survey for the first time, at their expense, last spring ('99). I was able to accompany the surveyor through the process, and even though I got no written report, I got an education. Passed with flying colors, but got some very helpful hints from a very down-to-earth marine professional. I recommend that if you need a survey, accompany the surveyor. You'll get more than the cost of your time out of it.
I have been insured via Boats US for 18 years (same boat) with no claims. Policy is agreed value. They asked for a survey for the first time, at their expense, last spring ('99). I was able to accompany the surveyor through the process, and even though I got no written report, I got an education. Passed with flying colors, but got some very helpful hints from a very down-to-earth marine professional. I recommend that if you need a survey, accompany the surveyor. You'll get more than the cost of your time out of it.
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John Goacher
No to BOAT/US
Had my previous boat insured with BOAT/US for 4 years without a survey (was a 1979 Hunter 25). Just bought a new boat, and requested a quote through BOAT/US again. They sent me a list of surveyors "in my area" whose surveys had proved "satisfactory". They stressed that they do not endorse any of the surveyors on the list and that I was free to supply a survey from a different company for consideration. Since none of the ones on their list was within 100 miles of the boat (it's in Bay City, Michigan), I used a local surveyor who worked for one of the companies listed by BOAT/US. They rejected the survey 3 days before launch and said I "must" use one of the surveyors on their list. The BOAT/US under-writer did not return my calls, and I went with another insurer. John s/v Perennial
Had my previous boat insured with BOAT/US for 4 years without a survey (was a 1979 Hunter 25). Just bought a new boat, and requested a quote through BOAT/US again. They sent me a list of surveyors "in my area" whose surveys had proved "satisfactory". They stressed that they do not endorse any of the surveyors on the list and that I was free to supply a survey from a different company for consideration. Since none of the ones on their list was within 100 miles of the boat (it's in Bay City, Michigan), I used a local surveyor who worked for one of the companies listed by BOAT/US. They rejected the survey 3 days before launch and said I "must" use one of the surveyors on their list. The BOAT/US under-writer did not return my calls, and I went with another insurer. John s/v Perennial
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Al Sandrik
Cost of a survey
David, Personally I have no problem with the expense of having a survey done when the boat is being hauled (for a bottom job or work, in other words every year around these parts). However, when you get a letter like the one described, bolt out of the blue, and now you have to pay $250-350 (I just paid $280) for the survey, $200 or so to get it hauled and the annual cost of the insurance has just been realized. Now lets say you got a bottom job in April, didn't get a survey at that time and come May you get this letter... Al Sandrik
David, Personally I have no problem with the expense of having a survey done when the boat is being hauled (for a bottom job or work, in other words every year around these parts). However, when you get a letter like the one described, bolt out of the blue, and now you have to pay $250-350 (I just paid $280) for the survey, $200 or so to get it hauled and the annual cost of the insurance has just been realized. Now lets say you got a bottom job in April, didn't get a survey at that time and come May you get this letter... Al Sandrik
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