Inner Forestay: more thoughts.

[Peter]

I'm interested in this modification, trying to come up with a simple, neat, and strong installation, keeping it as simple as possible.
This subject been covered in a lot of previous posts, but the one that intriged me most was Alan Critchlow's suggestion in post #7716:

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"Hello, I am a sailmaker. The trend for "staysail" style storm jib is
not to use an innner stay. Use a 2:1 halyard that is dead ended to the
mast. Use a technora (or spectra) in the halyard and in the luff of the jib. This may be a little more expensive. This system is removable and a lot quieter than a removable stay. Discuss this with your sailmaker."
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This would require a tack ring on a reinforced fore deck, but there would be no stay hanging from the mast, just a doubled halyard that could be tightened with the two-to-one setup using the winch on the mast.

To avoid the need for running backstays, the head could be at, or just above, the spreaders, although this would make only a small triangle available, about 38 sq. feet, whereas 50 sq. feet seems to be the recommended area.

If one used the pole lift block, about 4 1/2 ft. above the spreaders, a sail of up to 54 sq. feet would fit, but running backstays might be needed.

Wandering around the docks, gawking at boats, I noticed a nice Tayana 37 that had the top of the inner forestay mounted about half way between the spreaders and the mast head, with running backstays sharing the bottom mounting points for the aft lower stays, an interesting arrangement. Maybe this would be possible if the pole lift block is used, and maybe make the running backstays out of one of the new non-stretch synthetic lines, like Amsteel.

Any thoughts on this out there?

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

 

[tim_klynn]

From what I've looked at (some solent stay articles here:http://www.practicallysailing.com/blog/category/sails/page/2), it seems like a gibb t fitting (http://www.apsltd.com/c-926-t-ballfittingsandplatesj-hooks.aspx) near the masthead would eliminate the need for running back stays, and be a pretty clean install (with a rubber plug to help keep out water when not in use).

I picked up an ABI inner forestay deck fitting that on the long list of things to do, might end up on the foredeck with some kind of rod/spectra lashing going through the anchor locker to an bow fitting/plate that will back up a bow eye.

If you did not want to run the inner stay to the top of the mast, there is a stainless fitting that rivets to the mast that has an attachment point for the inner stay and block on the front and attachments for backstays on the sides/back (Staysail and inner forestay hardware and quick release fittings from Rigging Only). I suppose that for going out sailing in a hurricane, it wouldn't hurt to add running backstays, lower on the mast.

I've thought about making the inner forestay/solent stay with pbo/dyneema/dux line, but apparently it is a good idea to avoid using bronze hanks and go with synthetic loops to hank on the sail. It would certainly be easier to coil up/store a line vs a stainless wire stay. I don't know how durable the "super" lines are when using it as a stay for supporting a sail. it would seem like they would take more of a beating than when used as halyards or even standing rigging (as seems to be becomeing more popular).

You've probably already seen these sites:

Svsarah.com

www.svsarah.com

Untitled Document

Solent Stay Installation

Where to begin? I've been putting off writing this post until I had some measure of conclusion to what has been a fascinating and difficu...

gulf32aeolus.blogspot.com

http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/atomprojects4.htm

The inner forestay/solent stay project is a ways off for me. I've got an 70-80% jib that fits on my furler I use on the very gusty days. My current project is spinnaker rigging and trying to make the boat move on those miserable 0.5 -3 knot "wind" days.

Oh yeah, I should probably add that I really don't know anything about this, other than what I've read on the web....-Tim

 

[SVFlyAway]

I did this on a boat I once owned, it worked well then, but maybe not on the
Vega.

OK, why add any fastenings to the mast at all? I have a spare jib halyard
coming from the top of the mast. Why not just use that to hoist the storm
sail. I realize the geometry isn't quite as good as having a lower fitting
on the mast, but this eliminated adding a fitting to the mast and also
eliminates the need for the running backstays, which I find a nuisance. As I
said it worked before and since I had the spare halyard didn't require
buying more hardware. I have one on my rig on the Vega too.

I have attached the old write-up by the Per Brohall that includes some
comments on a storm jib (most of you have read this I am sure, but maybe not
all and there is good information). He says to attach the sail at the
spreaders and also how to fit the tack to the deck. I haven't done the
calculations, but it seems to me if the attachment is made there, the aft
lowers would be enough to stabilize the mast when a small storm jib is
flown. That way it eliminates the running backs. By calculating the triangle
from the spreader to the deck and back to the mast, this should give some
clue on the size he recommends.When he wrote this the world didn't have the
new synthetic lines strong enough to support the luff of a sail as we do
nowadays. I've even eliminated the wire lifelines and replaced them with one
of the wonder ropes.

A few people in the past have asked about a trisail in the past. The article
by Brohall comments that one isn't needed. But then he goes on in some
detail how to attach one to the mast and the size. I've had trisails built
for a couple of my boats in the past and I never flew them. Of course I have
one rule -- don't go where and particularly when storms are brewing. When
crossing the Equator the squalls are brutal, but even them we didn't use the
trisail, didn't have time to rig it as the squalls come up so fast.

 

[tiempo2010]

Tim
You can use synthetic for the removable stay if the right material is
chosen. Dynex Dux will handle the wear as well as stainless, believe it or
not. It was first used in the North Sea fishing industry and they have
changed all their lines to this material, even the main winch where the line
drags over a steel deck without a wear problem. Because it comes from
industry and not "exotic racing boats" the pricing is not exotic either. The
synthetic loops (softies) are a good match. A good knife will be dulled
trying to cut through Dynex Dux.
See these links. The first is an album of a fellow who lives on his tri part
of the year in Baja and the rest of the year he skippers a North Sea Trawler
outfitted with Dynex Dux.

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c305/jmolan/Alaska%20stuff/Synthetic%20Searunner/

The second link is Colligo Marine, distributors of Dynex for rigging.

http://www.colligomarine.com/

 

[albinvega3283]

Hi Chaps

Your joint replies on the use of Dynema are very good- thanks both. Thanks
also for the links to user and supplier. One point how well does Dynema
deal with degradation due to the effects of UV light? What is the life of
permanent standing rigging using Dynema for example?
I am involved with safety inspections of racing boats and have seen some
using Dynema for guard wires very effectively.

David Wisdish
V 3283 Ponteneur

 

[tiempo2010]

From what I have read, Dynex Dux will lose about 20% of its strength over a
five year span but stabilize after that as the outer layers protect the
inner. As it is so much stronger than stainless for the same diameter it
still is much stronger than stainless after years in the sun.

 

[albinvega3283]

Brian

Thanks for the info. Looks like Dyneema solves many problems as well as
being able to splice oneself rather than pay for swaging.

David

 

[vegatern]

Chris, The attachment didn't come through, at least I don't see it. If you have the full article by Per Brohall could you upload it to the files section? A little bit ago I uploaded some excerpts from that article, I don't have the article just the excerpts, but I will remove my upload if you have the full article.

Regarding the tack ring on deck, it seems an easy answer is a padeye through bolted to an opposing padeye on the overhead below. When needed a bit of rigging wire to an anchor point, perhaps on the chain locker bulkhead and cinched up with a rigging screw.
Craig