In-mast pros and cons

Don S/V ILLusion · Aug 6, 2009

A metaphor might be driving your car into a lake - the electric windows might not work but they sure are convenient. If you are that concerned planning your new boat, why not get a furling boom?

NC-C320 · Aug 6, 2009

It's Something out of Nothing

Let's see...in mast furling has been around at least 10 yrs. Lots of boats have them. Plenty of time in 10 yrs. for problems to develop, still the manufacturers are selling more and more. So there is a little sequence that you need to follow...is that so bad?

I have the traditional sails that drop down, but also a Dutchman furling system...similar deal, the boom needs to be approximately same position every time, the two monofilament lines have to be adjusted correctly, works best is headed upwind....

No doubt the in boom furling has a certain sequence and certain adjustements to work properly.

In my opinion, you are agonizing far too much. Just pick the boat and rig you like and go for it. None are going to be perfect and all work.

Stu Jackson · Aug 6, 2009

The "only" work left now on my boat is the mainsail cover. I often wish I had one of these puppies, but after hearing of John's experiences and others, I'll keep fit enough to get up on my mast step to get the cover off, and back on again at the end of a day sail. These days, if it's only a daysail, maybe I'll just use the jib. In order to "justify" longer "cruises" I'm tellin' myself: if you take off the mainsail cover, then at the very least stay out at anchor for a night."

Really, ct, you are over analyzing, and over typing, which I've been known to do, too. It's newer "technology" requires some coordination, maybe doesn't always work. So, what is it that you are replacing? You could learn to make it work, recognize its limitations, and make darned sure you knew how it worked. So many of the horror stories are of folks who go off with these new "toys," don't know how they work and get fouled up. Same folks who haven't torn down their winches I suppose...and who have"the yard" do all their work.

Alan · Aug 6, 2009

my 2 cents...

don't like roller furled mains, never have. Besides the issue of what happens when something gets buggered up and not work, you also have to deal with the sail controls that you can't have....halyard tension/cunningham for draft location, backstay tension for draft depth, leech flutter from an unsupported roach (no battens). Not to mention the loss of sailing performance due to a huge mast cross section and minimal sail area.

I'll stick to the tried and true method of raising and lowering my main and flaking it on the boom thank you. It ain't fancy but it is flawless.

Don S/V ILLusion · Aug 6, 2009

Ct
I think what others are suggesting is that there is a fundamental assumption that anyone who has a mast furler is:
1. capable of learning how to use it, and
2. not dumb enough to expect flawless performance with a blown out main

Les · Aug 6, 2009

By way of background information I have sailed the Pacific northwest since the mid 1960s. My wife and I both raced and cruised 10 different boats. I "busted a mast" during the Swiftsure--a major race here in the Northwest. And the crew and I won "boat of the year" in local racing. All my boats have been sloops--all had aluminum masts some with rod and some with wire stays.

Of my last five boats which have all been new Hunters, two (H380, H27) have in-mast furling for the main. I have not raced with these mains although with the little H27 I am considering it.

Some points to consider. When I sold the Hunter 380 after nine years of steady use, the surveyor thought my main was a new sail. Rolling them up helps preserve the sail as apposed to flaking the sail when it is down, or as we did in the early days, taking the main off and folding it on deck and putting it back into the bag. Another thing about in-mast and in-boom furling is that you do not have a mainsail cover to contend with. I really like this for single handed sailing that I do quite a lot. I don't have to get the mainsail cover out of a locker and go forward and cover the main. When I was yooung it was no big deal but now that I am an oldie, it is a big deal--I don't like going forward.

I really like the infinite amount of reefing I can do with an in-mast furling main. I think I really have more possibilities then when I had a traditional main but perhaps I'm also getting more laxed in my sail handling.

As for the down wind option, it took a while for me to learn some new scenarios in racing. Once I found that by broad reaching I could go faster I was hooked. While others went wing and wing, we would broad reach (120 to 150 degrees off the wind) and jibe down wind and quite often be two to four boat lengths ahead of those that rounded the windward mark with us. It drove a number of the fleet crazy when we did this. We did have to move the sheet blocks forward--you can't be lazy.

I have sailed on one boat with in-boom furling. It appeared to be excellent but I asked the owner about reefing and then tightening the outhaul....can't be done he said. I would suspect in the Northwest in predominately light aires it would not be a factor.

I like the convenience of the roller furling sails, the fact that I don't have to go forward, the speed in which I get the sails working and putting them to bed, and what appears to be extended life of my sails.

For those that say that you take a hit on sail size by cutting roach out of the main--check mast height--my mast is higher then standard....I suspect to accommodate furling gear but I also have a taller sail than standard.

In ten years of using a furling main, I had only one time problem when the sail came out of the mast entirely. It had been put back on incorrectly (by me) and was not properly put into the slot. My wife and I were out cruising when it happened and we just furled the sail around the mast and boom with extra lines and fixed when we reached a dock that night. Not a big problem. With her supervision and help we got back on and it never bothered us again. Ain't it the way guys when you wife helps?

I'm a senior citizen now--I won't sail without a furling main and jib. But hey, I'm still sailing.

RichH · Aug 6, 2009

Totally agree with Alan ..... and add two more.

A mainsail cut for roller furling cannot have a 'boltrope' at the luff; and, when the wind begins to increase up towards the max. design wind strength for the sail, luff begins to stretch inordinately ... and now the sail cloth is subject to the increased load instead of the load being taken by the missing boltrope - the 'continuous luff support tape' soon starts to permanently stretch out of shape- RESULT: developing 'shape problems' that cant be 'adjusted back' as when the boltrope is adjusted so one will encounter much shorter effective 'service life' from the sail.

Those 'usual' fluttering leeches on roller furled mainsails will destroy themselves very fast - as the fabric fibers and stitching very quickly 'fatigue' .... AND its very difficult to impossible to adjust the entire leech on a partly rolled up mainsail.

Franklin · Aug 6, 2009

First off, in-mast has nothing to do with B&R....two totally different topics. B&R = hunter, not in-mast.

Second, in-mast has been around for 15+ years and mine is 13 years old. I replace my main last year but I never had a problem rolling it up.

Third, it is different then the standard rig and you will have to learn new techniques but that's not a bad thing.

Forth, boom furling has been around for about 50 years. We have an old wooden boat here made in Europe that has it. Why it never made it to production boats I don't know but that's been an option for modern masts for about 10 years now. Doesn't make sense why is cost more except that maybe higher demand for it but if higher demand, why do we not see it much? Bad thing about it is most will need an electric winch to raise it.

As others said, you are over-analyizing. Let me help you understand how to pick: if you want top notch performance, like .1 or .2 knot difference or you want to keep cost low, go with the standard main: if you want safety and single handling use, go with furling. Racers will always go with standard rig and most cruisers will go with furling and that's why the new crusing boats are mostly furling.

John · Aug 6, 2009

Agree

Franklin said:
if you want top notch performance, like .1 or .2 knot difference or you want to keep cost low, go with the standard main: if you want safety and single handling use, go with furling. Racers will always go with standard rig and most cruisers will go with furling and that's why the new crusing boats are mostly furling.

My thoughts exactly, although the difference might be a little more than .2, but the general thought is the same. I've also found that it's pretty easy to work on the furling drum if you have to. As far as taking the main in, vs. dropping a traditional main - it's way easier on the in-mast furling main. I'd say the only reasons to get the standard would be:

1) you want peak performance
2)You don't want to spend the extra money
3)You are super into the KISS principle (like the Pardy's, etc.)

alexco38 · Aug 6, 2009

They are both Ok technology just not pointing too well as you can't have batten on the main. I believe in K.I.S.S. While I still able, I rather use the traditional sail cover with a simple lazy jack.

One of my neighbour has a on boom sailcover with a zipper on top. I don't know what's it call, but its a pain to zip it up as it is on top of the bag. And the bag stay on the boom while sailing. That's ok until it rain. It become a evethrogh to funnel rain water to the cockpit sometimes aiming directly at the guy on the helm.

RichH · Aug 6, 2009

Franklin said:
........, boom furling has been around for about 50 years. We have an old wooden boat here made in Europe that has it. Why it never made it to production boats I don't know but that's been an option for modern masts for about 10 years now. Doesn't make sense why is cost more except that maybe higher demand for it but if higher demand, why do we not see it much? Bad thing about it is most will need an electric winch to raise it.

Actually its been around longer than that ... but was globally rejected with the advent of modern sail materials because (then) you couldnt use a vang, were forced to use 'end of boom sheeting' and the rolled up resultant shape of the main (hence performance/safety) was 'deplorable'. Most of the boat builders of the 60s & 70s who had large inventories of the roller furling booms (and after the advent of 'dacron' sails) simply welded the rolling section solid ... and then added vangs, mid-boom sheeting. I can remember folks with roller boom reefing having to add and entrap large feather pillows into the middle of the 'furl' to get the sail to 'work'. Question? how do you adjust the outhaul (to power up or down) on a boom roller-furler ??? ... on a slab reef, you simply ease or tighten the reef's clew line.

Roller furling booms / In-mast roller furling - still a BAD idea (even the second time around) if one actually trims and 'shapes' their sails. Chief reason - as you 'roll-up', they 'power up' the middle of the sail long before than when using a slab reef thus FORCING you reef earlier and with a 'reefed' sail that has the 'shape' of sheet of limp plywood.

0.1 kt less speed? Just remember that next time you are clawing your way from a lee shore in a heavy blow ... and your boat simply wont move against steep waves, especially if you 'roll' the sail more than beyond ~30% ... the ~normal 'first reef' in a 'normal' sail.

With roller reefed mains there should be a law that once such sails are reduced beyond ~30% a transducer automatically sends out a message on the VHF ... and automatically puts out an 'all call for MOMMY'. A few years ago there occurred a surprise 'weather bomb' that left the lower Ches. Bay with F9-10 for 10+ hours on a busy weekend .... Guess which mast configuration boats (many) were washed ashore and had to have the CG rescue the former occupants. Nah, roller furling mast should be strictly limited to 'dockside entertainment centers' and 'fornactoriums'. <grin>

Have you ever heard the wind 'loudly groaning and howling' in the slot of a roller furling mast that is aft to the wind? ... worse and more annoying than stinkpottesr with LOUD gensets. Sometimes the 'groaning' is louder than a WOT cigarette boat.

sailaway78 · Aug 6, 2009

My .02

I have some really mixed feelings about the in mast furlers. Of course, my experience is limited, and am by no stretch of the imagination an expert. But I do have some friends who have had these. First on a H 33, on which it worked flawlessly. After Katrina took that one away, they ended up with a new H 36. On this boat, it doesn't work quite as well. From what I can see, and the owner agrees, the mast section in the 36 is the same as on the 33. But there is more sail on the 36. It has to be rolled up just right, and the halyard tension just so, or the sail gets a wrinkle in it when furling, and then is a PITA to unfurl. Other friends of mine have a H 45 CC, and it seems to work just fine. Not sure about the cross section on the 45 mast, but am assuming it is larger. So, my opinion is that they work just fine, if there isn't too much sail to be stowed in the mast, when they become a problem. Don't know about the performance aspect, but I can attest to the fact that the H 45 is really fast. Don't think that the loss of a little boat speed matters much anyway, when everything else is considered, unless of course you are race bound.

Ralph18422 · Aug 6, 2009

I have had traditional main sail and roller furling main sail on my boats. The safety of reefing the main on the roller furling from the cockpit was the main selling point for me. I have rolled up the main from all points of sail without issue. I think common sense on use of the equipment is implied and failures in the equipment through misuse can happen on any of the main sail systems. I think it is a preference that each person will have to make through their OWN experiences as opposed to stories

Go down to a dealer and take a new boat out for a test sail, take a used boat out, sail with people in your marina. Don't forget there are different brands of masts out there too.
PS. Thanks to some of the anti-roller furling crowd for the chuckles

Capt. Kermie · Aug 6, 2009

I agree with Alan and I like having battens, something the furlers do not have. I may be old school but the old system is tried and true and has more sail controls. It only takes my wife and I a couple of minutes to take the sail cover off or put it on again, it is not that big a deal. We even hoist a canvas sock over the furled headsail since I have two, (jib & genoa) neither of which have a UV cover sewn on. I have never used a furled main but my perception is that they add more chances for mechanical failure and have poor sail shape.

CarlN · Aug 6, 2009

I'm always struck by how most of the people with stories about the problems with in-mast furlers have never actually owned (or sometimes even sailed) one.

It's rare to find someone who has owned in-mast or boom furling who would consider going back.

You asked for pros and cons:

Pro-

Easy reefing. You can always have just the right amount of sail for the wind. I'll reef mine six inches or so just to balance the helm. Carrying too much sail because you can't be bothered to reef hurts performance much more than a little missing roach.

Safety - With in-mast, I never leave the cockpit to reduce sail. I'm told that there are boats where single line slab reefing works every time without leaving the cockpit - but I've never been on such a boat. When I'm around, the reefing line hangs up on something about one out of three times.

More sailing - it's so easy to set the sail with in mast furling that I do it for even the shortest sail.

No sail cover - Sail covers (especially on a boat with a bimini), are the devil's creation. And these days the "real sailors don't use bimini's" argument might leave you sailing alone.

No lost halyard. The mainsail is raised once a year with the halyard shackle wired closed. With traditional rigs over a 30 year sailing career I've lost 3 main halyards up the mast. One at a particularly dangerous moment.

My Selden furler doesn't jamb. Never has. Eight years. If you want something that DOES jamb, get a traditional mainsail with full battens. Even with a few thousand dollars of special luff tracks you still have to climb on mast winches to pull it down.

Simple - What could be simpler than a furling mast or boom? No spaghetti of reefing lines or sail ties. No cover. No wet sail sliding off the boom when you try to furl it at the end of the day. No need for a 2nd person to help furl. No "bad" furl job that makes your boat look unkept. No water down your back when you raise the main after a rainy night. No sail cover that comes loose in a wind and shreds itself on the backstay.

Cons -

Less roach. Your roach will be smaller, tut the new vertical battens (the 6ft ones not the full length) get you most of the way there. And you're not racing.

Tuning - You have the same leach and outhaul trimming as a traditional rig (and the vertical battens help too). Yes there is no cunningham, but at least the luff isn't sagging to leeward like the luff of a roller furler headsail (which I assume you plan to use) - or will you use hank on genoas?

Increased sail wear - I haven't seen this in eight years. If you have a B&R rig you do want to keep the sail from rubbing on all those shrouds - bust as mentioned that has nothing to do with the furler.

Cost: Can't argue here. It's more expensive. But it's a lot closer if you need a fancy luff track system with the traditional rig.

Weight: It is heavier but the difference is much less today than when it started. You'll save a lot more weight by switching to laminated sails than worrying about the mast furler.

Not furling downwind - I can and have furled downwind but it is so easy to come up to a beam reach for 60 seconds to make the furling easier and neater - I don't see the problem. I furl on either tack without a second thought.

Carl

Joe · Aug 6, 2009

your question: in-mast vs. in-boom... I'd choose the in-mast with vertical battens.
Why?.... Look at all the large, expensive cruisers.... that's what they use. Also... I think rolling out the main the length of the boom, compared to fully hoisting the main offers less chances for fouling.... and how do you keep water out or the boom's sail cavity?.... Hey.... never owned either type myself. Just couldn't justify the price and the performance trade off but if I were buying a 40 ft plus cruiser that I planned on sailing short handed it'd be a serious consideraton.

As far as reefing goes.... It is very common to rig slab reefing systems that can be operated single handed from the safety of the cockpit.

seadaddler · Aug 6, 2009

Non Believers

Remember the first Microwave not interested in them and now every kitchen of any kind have them,most in mast owners will never go back,old type sails proven and trouble free?????????? give it a break.
Nick

Franklin · Aug 6, 2009

RichH said:
0.1 kt less speed? Just remember that next time you are clawing your way from a lee shore in a heavy blow ... and your boat simply wont move against steep waves, especially if you 'roll' the sail more than beyond ~30% ... the ~normal 'first reef' in a 'normal' sail.

Sounds like you have limited experience with roller furling mains. I did the Regatta De Amigos race and was right on the race boat's heals beating into waves and 25 knots true wind. These race boats: J109, J44 and others like that with ratings 3x better than my boat. I had my main rolled in 50% and jib out full. I was doing about 5.8 knots...not too impressive unless you figure in beating against the 10-12' step waves and wind but definately proves a roller furling main has no problem beating into waves and wind.

When dealing with racing, a .2 knot difference is hugh, but not so much to the cruiser.

In-mast pros and cons

Ctskip

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Don S/V ILLusion

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NC-C320

Stu Jackson

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Ctskip

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Alan

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Don S/V ILLusion

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Les

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RichH

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Franklin

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John

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alexco38

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RichH

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sailaway78

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Ralph18422

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Capt. Kermie

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CarlN

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Joe

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seadaddler

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Franklin

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