Thanks for participating. An old question with hopefully a new answer. I have an inmast furling mainsail; love it for convenience; hate it for light wind conditions. On a small boat like a Hunter 290, probably wouldn't go furling again. But....we were wondering how to improve light air sailing. One suggestion was a 'club sail', a full roach mainsail to hoist on light air (and club racing, but we don't race) days. Other than the inconvenience of hauling and storing, would put the 290 at least back to where it would be without the inmast furling. A vertical batten sail was another answer; thanks for the falling dollar, a Maxiroach sail from overseas is now 30% more expensive than a year ago....so we kept looking. A better answer was suggested recently - an asymmetric spinnaker. Since it's for light air, the larger sail makes all sense in the world; it'll point up to 60 degrees, which is fine with me. It seems to be a great solution, bu the admiral requested I post this question first and see what the experts say...and along you came. Look forward to your thoughts, and again, thanks for participating.
Improve light air sailing
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Light Air Sailing
P, If you don't already have a cruising asymmetrical spinnaker you should seriously consider getting one. In light air this sail will provide a larger increase in performance than a full roach main on every point of sail except for upwind. It is also a very fun sail to use. If set up with an ATN Sleeve they are very easy to set and douse with 2 people. They really are hard to beat. As far as the mainsail goes you don't have do look to Europe in order to get a vertical batten RF mainsail. We have been making VB mains for years with a great deal of success. Most of the time the owner calls me on Monday after trying the sail to tell me how his new main has transformed the boat's performance. It's not rocket science, the sail just needs to be properly and designed and engineered. Thanks, Bill C. Doyle Sails
P, If you don't already have a cruising asymmetrical spinnaker you should seriously consider getting one. In light air this sail will provide a larger increase in performance than a full roach main on every point of sail except for upwind. It is also a very fun sail to use. If set up with an ATN Sleeve they are very easy to set and douse with 2 people. They really are hard to beat. As far as the mainsail goes you don't have do look to Europe in order to get a vertical batten RF mainsail. We have been making VB mains for years with a great deal of success. Most of the time the owner calls me on Monday after trying the sail to tell me how his new main has transformed the boat's performance. It's not rocket science, the sail just needs to be properly and designed and engineered. Thanks, Bill C. Doyle Sails
asymmetrical spinnaker
I guess my questions got lost in cyber space so I'll tyr again. I single hand most of the time. Can one person handle an asymmetrical spinnaker? I too have an in-mast furling system. I love it and unlike P, I'll never get another boat without it. There is an external track on the aft side of the mast though. Could I use a main with slides for light air without taking down my furled main or would the protruding uv triangle mess up the sail shape too much? Thanks Bill
I guess my questions got lost in cyber space so I'll tyr again. I single hand most of the time. Can one person handle an asymmetrical spinnaker? I too have an in-mast furling system. I love it and unlike P, I'll never get another boat without it. There is an external track on the aft side of the mast though. Could I use a main with slides for light air without taking down my furled main or would the protruding uv triangle mess up the sail shape too much? Thanks Bill
Asymetric Single Handed
With an autopilot and ATN, you can handle the asymetric single handed in light air. But I have some safety concerns if the winds pick up. It can get pretty wild on the foredeck trying to blanket the spinnaker behind the main, and haul down the sock. I would prefer a human hand on the tiller at that time. The asymetric is the best sail for light air on any course except close hauled. It also is a great sail for broad reaching downwind in heavier air. I'd try the asymetric before investing in a new main. Ours works so well that I doubt that more roach on the main would be a big deal when the asymetric is flying. The roachy main could be important close hauled going to the windward mark, though. David Lady Lillie
With an autopilot and ATN, you can handle the asymetric single handed in light air. But I have some safety concerns if the winds pick up. It can get pretty wild on the foredeck trying to blanket the spinnaker behind the main, and haul down the sock. I would prefer a human hand on the tiller at that time. The asymetric is the best sail for light air on any course except close hauled. It also is a great sail for broad reaching downwind in heavier air. I'd try the asymetric before investing in a new main. Ours works so well that I doubt that more roach on the main would be a big deal when the asymetric is flying. The roachy main could be important close hauled going to the windward mark, though. David Lady Lillie
Thanks; a reference to apparent wind...
Thanks for the responses. No question, the in-mast is great; my only reference was to a small boat, especially a Hunter, where the large roach mainsail is the basis for power. Someday my Sabre 426 will assuredly have in-mast (and a crew of lovelies..don't I wish). It's interesting that half of sailing may be simply enjoying the experience of the wind; on a close haul, at least you get to enjoy the wind blowing past, even if it is light. Going downwind, with little or no apparent wind, is the killer, at least psychologically. Sounds like an asymmetric is a great solution for those days when the apparent (and true) wind is light. At least you get a little wind flowing through what's left of your hair. Again, thanks for the responses.
Thanks for the responses. No question, the in-mast is great; my only reference was to a small boat, especially a Hunter, where the large roach mainsail is the basis for power. Someday my Sabre 426 will assuredly have in-mast (and a crew of lovelies..don't I wish). It's interesting that half of sailing may be simply enjoying the experience of the wind; on a close haul, at least you get to enjoy the wind blowing past, even if it is light. Going downwind, with little or no apparent wind, is the killer, at least psychologically. Sounds like an asymmetric is a great solution for those days when the apparent (and true) wind is light. At least you get a little wind flowing through what's left of your hair. Again, thanks for the responses.
Vertical Battens
Bill, you mention that you have supplied VBs for years. Were these retrofits to an existing furling system and, if so, was there no problem with furling the extra thickness of the sail fitted with VBs?
Bill, you mention that you have supplied VBs for years. Were these retrofits to an existing furling system and, if so, was there no problem with furling the extra thickness of the sail fitted with VBs?
VB Mains
Mike, We use very stiff but low profile flat carbon battens that are not full length. They do not overlap vertically so the roll inside the mast is only marginally bigger(1/4"). The only limitation is that that opening in the mast needs to be at least 3/4". Bill C. Doyle Sails
Mike, We use very stiff but low profile flat carbon battens that are not full length. They do not overlap vertically so the roll inside the mast is only marginally bigger(1/4"). The only limitation is that that opening in the mast needs to be at least 3/4". Bill C. Doyle Sails
Retrofits
Bill, Would Doyle consider taking a relatively young RF sail (made by Doyle but without VB) and redoing the sail, adding some roach and adding VBs? Would think the cut of the sail is key (not like taking a fuller, traditional sail and trying to make it into a RF sail); adding a small roach wouldn't be too difficult (says I); and building in the VB battens. Would seem like half the work and half the cost, since the rest of the mainsail already fits exactly. The only issue seems to be the Edson slot in the mast; it's only 1/2" (which Maxiroach thought was enough), but I see your reference to 3/4". Wider is better, obviously. Guidance? Not possible?
Bill, Would Doyle consider taking a relatively young RF sail (made by Doyle but without VB) and redoing the sail, adding some roach and adding VBs? Would think the cut of the sail is key (not like taking a fuller, traditional sail and trying to make it into a RF sail); adding a small roach wouldn't be too difficult (says I); and building in the VB battens. Would seem like half the work and half the cost, since the rest of the mainsail already fits exactly. The only issue seems to be the Edson slot in the mast; it's only 1/2" (which Maxiroach thought was enough), but I see your reference to 3/4". Wider is better, obviously. Guidance? Not possible?
Retrofit not Practical
Adding roach and battens to a hollow leech RF mainsail is not practical. It would be rather costly and almost impossible to end up with a smooth sail. The best thing to do would be to sell the old sail and put that money toward a new main designed from the beginning to your specs. Used RF mainsails can be sold to owners of standard mains in view of conversion into storm trysails. Thanks, Bill Colombo Doyle Sails
Adding roach and battens to a hollow leech RF mainsail is not practical. It would be rather costly and almost impossible to end up with a smooth sail. The best thing to do would be to sell the old sail and put that money toward a new main designed from the beginning to your specs. Used RF mainsails can be sold to owners of standard mains in view of conversion into storm trysails. Thanks, Bill Colombo Doyle Sails
Doyle light air sails
Take a look at the Doyle UPS-it's a cruising version of the code zero, flies like a large, light air genny but sets out of a sock, downwind behaves like an asymetrical chute. it points well on light air and can be tacked in a pinch. Look at the pics of "Escape" from this summer going wing on wing-that's the sail
Take a look at the Doyle UPS-it's a cruising version of the code zero, flies like a large, light air genny but sets out of a sock, downwind behaves like an asymetrical chute. it points well on light air and can be tacked in a pinch. Look at the pics of "Escape" from this summer going wing on wing-that's the sail
Doyle UPS
The Doyle UPS actuall is set on a self contained Line-Drive Furler. It has a double Vectran Luff Rope to handle the load required to furl the sail. Bill C.
The Doyle UPS actuall is set on a self contained Line-Drive Furler. It has a double Vectran Luff Rope to handle the load required to furl the sail. Bill C.
UPS
Chuck, You're right the Doyle UPS is a great sail especially for light air sailing. Usually, though, we sett it on a continuous line drive furler, made by Facnor or Harken. The UPS utilizes a double luff rope made out of vectran core to handle the load required for furling. Bill C. Doyle Sails
Chuck, You're right the Doyle UPS is a great sail especially for light air sailing. Usually, though, we sett it on a continuous line drive furler, made by Facnor or Harken. The UPS utilizes a double luff rope made out of vectran core to handle the load required for furling. Bill C. Doyle Sails
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