Idea for a storm jib

[Hermit Scott]

If someone has seen this before please let me know where I can go on the net to see it.
The green pole is a roller furler.
The blue ring is a halyard sheeve.
The orange ring is where the rope attaches that goes through the leading edge of the storm jib.
Here is how it would work. There would be a halyard already on the blue ring. You would roll the roller furler all the way up and secure it. Then you would hook the rope near the tack of the storm sail to the orange ring. Then you would attach the other end of the rope near the head of the storm jib to the halyard going through the sheeve at the blue ring. Then you would hoist your storm jib with a winch on the mast or have the halyard run through a turning block and back to the cockpit.
It could be all hooked up in a bag on the deck and the halyard ran down the mast to stay out of the way of the roller furler jib. Then all you would have to do is rollup the furler and hoist the storm jib with out leaving the cockpit.

This is a storm jib for a sloop. That sort of makes it look like a cutter. I got the idea after I saw that moonshine boat pic.
Please forgive my crude mock up.

 

[Don12364]

Yes,
I bought a second hand storm jib (never used of course) and did it your way except that I used the spinnaker uphaul sheave on the mast for the head of the sail.
I have never had need to use it in anger and my concerns are that I might not be able to get enough luff tension for the sail set flying even though it has a wire luff.
I used a high tech low stretch halyard to try to overcome this.

I am also concerned that the sheets of the furled sail will chafe the storm jib because they need to be really tight to stop that jib coming unfurled.
Otherwise I think I am good to go.
Works okay in lighter conditions!!!!!!!

 

[sailingdog]

I don't think that chafing against the sheets of the furled genny is much of a worry, considering how flat you should be sheeting the storm jib.

Something similar is done using a solent stay. The two issues you're going to have are that you'll need a really substantial fitting on the mast for it, and you're probably going to need running backstays to support the mast against the loads imposed by the storm jib. The advantage of a solent stay is that the top tang for it is generally located near the normal tang for the jib, and as such generally doesn't require separate running backstays for its use.

You'd also probably need to use a fairly high-tech, low-stretch line for the halyard and for the luff of the storm jib to prevent it from losing shape to stretch.

 

[newly anonymous]

right idea, wrong boat

fitting a solent rig to a catalina 30 would be roughly equivalent to equipping that boat with a bow thruster. It could be done, certainly, but why?

Conventional wisdom is that a stayless sail would not be ideal in high winds. One option would be to fit a baby stay on the boat. But even that would constitute a great deal of extra engineering and rigging for little gain.

If you're really set on a storm jib, probably your easiest/cheapest route would be with an ATN Gale Sail.

http://www.atninc.com/gale.html

 

[Todd Smith]

Re: right idea, wrong boat

Well, if he has outfited that Catalina 30 to be able to sail in conditions requiring a storm jib, and intends to sail in those conditions, then why not have such a jib ?

A solent stay such as sailingdog describes isn't that much engineering.

And it's not that much work to use. You keep the stay stowed until you set off on an ocean passage, then rig it up, hank on the sail and secure the sail on the deck. If the wind picks up enough, you roll up the genoa and hoist the storm jib/staysail.

Todd

PS, has anyone here actually used a gale sail in a storm ? They look suspect to me.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I have a 10' hand made sailboat in my shop, it was here when I got here. Brand new sails never used. A guy won it in a raffel and never used it. It has a set up similar to a gaff rig. But the luff of the sail is unsupported and extends past the mast. I guess this type set up is only for light wind. Who would want to be in a 10' boat in a storm anyway. I didn't know how important the luff tension would be to a sail.
The gale sail is alright looking but, it's not as simple to hoist or install as what I am proposing.

Donalex- what you are talking about is what I am takling about. I am not sure if having a wire luff would help keep the shape any better than a low stretch rope. Because you are hoisting it with a rope halyard anyway. So the max tension you will be able to put on it will be the max tension of the rope. And the luff wire IS the halyard in essesce. If the luff wire didn't stretch at all but the halyard did the slack would be seen in the leading edge of the sail anyway. It may help a little though.
If this works, I want one and a series drouge for storms. I wonder if it would be a good combination.
I think the solent stay has a quick release so you only put it up if you intend to use it right then. (I didn't read the whole article, I'm getting ready to ride to starbucks)

Help me out here guys, when you deploy a storm sail do you have it sheeted in tight to the midline of the ship? Then deploy your drouge and head below for a relaxing ride?

 

[Joe]

The problem with the gale sail is you still have to go forward to rig it... up or down. What hermit is seeking is a safe way to hoist the storm sail without going forward... am I right, Hermit? what you should absolutely understand is that just putting up a smaller sail doesn't mean you are rigging a heavy weather storm jib..... but read the following aritcles carefully to understand what else is needed.

Here is a general info link about storm sails:

http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/article/storm-sails

The following link is more specific about rigging a storm jib for coastal sailing.

http://www.smrmarine.co.uk/YachtRigging/tmenu/you_still_need_a_storm_jib.asp

Here is an excerpt from the article above...re: why you need a standing stay, rather than a free flying storm jib......

"It is necessary to have this standing stay as it is virtually impossible to set up a flying jib in storm conditions. The luff must be under control or a wildly lashing canvas and luff wire will do their best to decapitate the crew. Also, it is not possible to get the luff of the sail tight enough using winch power only, if you do manage to set the sail flying."

and finally, here is a preview from a book available online....

http://books.google.com/books?id=NB...X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA177,M1

 

[John Nantz]

Storm Jib requirements

Here are a few more storm jib requirements:

1. Sail Cloth Weight: must be heavier than the regular jib. Order of magnitude, the weight of the storm jib (put on a scale) would be not much less than the regular jib (put on a scale). And this is with the storm jib having a much smaller sail area. So, what happens, is the sail cloth of the storm jib will be much stiffer than the regular sail. With the stiffer sail cloth I doubt the sail-in-a-sail-bag trick, similar to a spinnaker, will work very well.

2. Innerstay/storm jib luff: should be inboard of the forestay for a better balanced sail plan - and - to get the slot working. If the leach of the storm jib is too far forward of the mast the slot effect.... will..... not..... work. I know this from experience. If the jib is too far forward the helm, with reduced mainsail area, will be off. The solution is to have the innerstay brought in, balance the sail plan, get the slot working, maintain a more neutral helm, have a boat that can have some weigh-on and better control.

Of course, to have the innerstay inboard, as previously mentioned, will require the rig to be engineered to withstand the forces. The storm jib tack needs to be anchored to the deck with the appropriate structural supports that will transfer the loads to the hull and the mast will surely need running backs.

Also, if a storm jib is needed you really don't want to be running, or even crawling, around on the foredeck with only your significant other at the helm - if you can help it. Don't ask me how I know.

The best way to go is with a proper system that can be setup ahead of time and managed from the cockpit, but I think we all know that. It's not easy and it's not cheap, but that's what's really needed.

So much for my two cents.

 

[John Nantz]

Good links, Joe!

Those are some good links, Joe!

Okay, so I did this backwards - wrote my post then checked out the links in Joe's #7 post. Basically, that's it! The middle one was especially interesting.

The bottom link said the main should have leach line adjustments at each reef point, which is true. However, when things get nasty and the boom is "up there", just try grabbing one of those little leach lines and getting it tied up or in a jamb cleat on a nasty sea, with a wet deck, and probably cold. This is not an easy or safe thing to do.

Good links, Joe!

 

[Hermit Scott]

With out to much ado it looks like the 'simple' idea turns out to be pretty easy to mess up with out experience. It would have been a nice simple idea if it worked.
The gail sail looks to be a pretty good idea, aside from the fact that you have to be up on deck to set it up. The literature Joe directed us to says they don't trust the fastening of the gail sail around the furler. I hope they aren't selling storm sails that shoot off like a kite after being hoisted. That sounds like a lawsuit. 'Hoist the lawsuit!'

I think I would put an extra stay on my boat after I put a bow thruster on it as Newly Anonymous says. I was hoping to solve the problem of no storm jib easily. I don't want to rely on a roller failer. It looks like a jib fastened over the furler is the easiest way, but probably not the best. It looks to be pretty good as long as it's fastened well enough.

 

[sailingdog]

The way a GaleSail fastens around the furler has to be at least as secure as the way a hanked on storm jib would work, since it is using the same piston hanks that a traditional sail would use.... but instead of fastening around the forestay, they're used to hold a sleeve that wraps around the furled headsail closed.

 

[newly anonymous]

perhaps you should talk to a rigger

A solent stay such as sailingdog describes isn't that much engineering.

Assuming the mast is capable of retrofitting a forestay, an additional chainplate would have to be added, most probably to the bulkhead immediately aft of the chain locker. You'd probably want to add a set of spectra running backstays to stabilize the rig in storm conditions. I'm guessing the job would come in over $10,000 if the work were done professionally, much more if the cost of a second furler, jib and running rigging are added in. Don't forget the cost of unstepping and restepping the mast to install the forestay fitting and halyard sheave.

You can add a gun turrent to a Catalina 30 if you so desire, but that doesn't make it an ideal battleship. The additional weight of a solent rig on the bow is relatively nothing on a Celestial 50, but on a Catalina 30....

 

[Todd Smith]

Assuming the mast is capable of retrofitting a forestay, an additional chainplate would have to be added, most probably to the bulkhead immediately aft of the chain locker. You'd probably want to add a set of spectra running backstays to stabilize the rig in storm conditions. I'm guessing the job would come in over $10,000 if the work were done professionally, much more if the cost of a second furler, jib and running rigging are added in. Don't forget the cost of unstepping and restepping the mast to install the forestay fitting and halyard sheave.

We are talking about a removable solent stay, without a furler. A true solent stay is close enough to the masthead to not need running backstays.

I can see ways to make this a simpler engineering project than you describe.

Is your objection to the Catalina 30 itself ? or would you have the same objection to adding the stay to a "World Cruiser 30" ?

Todd

 

[newly anonymous]

nothing could be further from the truth

Is your objection to the Catalina 30 itself ? or would you have the same objection to adding the stay to a "World Cruiser 30" ?

Todd

I think the Catalina 30 is a marvelous boat, although I think even more highly of the venerable Catalina 27. But either boat is wrong for a solent rig, or for a bow thruster, gun turrent, et cetera.

The attraction of a solent rig is in those situations where a genoa becomes too big for a short-handed crew easily to make a sail change in a seaway, especially on a cruising boat that doesn't tack or gybe often. The genoa on the headstay in a solent rig can no longer be tacked, and must be furled prior to a tack and then unfurled after the tack is completed. This makes great sense on a large passagemaker, but no sense on ANY 30 footer.

Once again, I recommend you speak with a rigger. A temporary solent rig would still necessitate new chainplates, a good deal of mast engineering, et cetera, even if runners were not used. To rig such a thing on a temporary basis on a Catalina 30 would be even more goofy than to rig a permanent solent rig. Far better to go with a detachable baby stay, as I mentioned in my earlier post. (Although such a rig would probably necessitate runners.) But none of this would be quite as sensible as rigging a gale sail.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I disagree it would be $10,000. I also disagree with the gun turret; it's going portside in the head.
I really don't want to run an extra stay, I'm not really sure of the difference between a baby stay and a solent stay.
But here's how it would go.....
1. Climb mast, hole saw out a 3" hole install a 2 piece backing plate and bolt up the top mount. The mount could include a sheeve for the halyard. $250 for the plate if you can't make it your self.
2. Install the chainplate on the deck near the anchor locker reinforce underneath. $250 for the chainplate if you can't make it yourself.
3. Install a $500 stay.
4. Install a $9000 storm jib.
There $10,000.
Newly, it's removable by hand so you don't have to sail around furling and unfurling just to tack.
One good thing about doing this job on a C30 is the mast is untapered. You could build the top plate tp fit at the bottom of the mast with out climbing.

The original idea here only entailed a rope and a sail and a chainplate on deck. That was quite simple. If it would work, it would be well worth installing.

 

[Todd Smith]

Re: nothing could be further from the truth

newly,

My objection to the gale sail is that you have to haul the sleeve over the rolled up genoa and I think that would be a pain in the butt during storm conditions. I would much rather have hanks on a wire stay.

On a 30 foot sloop that I was going to take offshore for passages. I'd probably just use hanked on sails and change to a smaller jib as needed.

If you were not going offshore, none of this is needed anyway.

Back to the engineering. You only need to add:

1) fitting on mast
2) chainplate on deck, over some sort of bulkhead/support
3) halyard, could be external
4) the stay itself
5) jib sheet tracks/blocks, maybe use the rail if the angles support it

Did I miss anything ?

It's the same engineering for a baby stay, which also requires runners.

Hermit,

A solent stay attaches just below the mast head and a few feet behind the bow on deck. A baby stay attaches more or less in the middle of the mast and attaches halfway (or so) from the mast to the bow.

Todd

 

[RichH]

A typical storm jib will be approximately 33% of the area of a 100% headsail.

Hermit - The problem I forsee with your 'rig' design is lack of support for the attachment of the 'hounds' of the inner forestay with the mast ...... nothing opposes the forces induced by the inner forestay TO the mast. You need to mathematically oppose these forces induced to the mast .... or you can expect sometimes catastrophic results.
A headstay is always coupled to and react with a backstay. A forestay (where the foreSTAYSAIL is attached) is always opposed by either running backstays or intermediate stays.
You will need to consider at least 'running backstays' or 'intermediate' stays to be a reaction force .... or you will wind up with a mast with severe 'reverse bow' .... OR the mast will pump/oscilate like hell due to the varying loads of the innerforestay. Mast pumping is dangerous and can cause and lead catastropic mast/rigging failure.

Early Island Packets had their forestay / staysail arrangement just like your drawing .... but were hauled by wire rope which did not tolerate the sharp bend at the sheeve at the mast .... and ultimately failed ... but they did have 'intermediate stays' to react to these forces. This could work with a dyneema or amsteel luff rope/stays ... but still needs 'runners' to oppose the forces to keep the mast straight.

 

[Hermit Scott]

An article that Joe provided said as long as you mount the top within a foot of the forestay tang, the back stay can be used to counter the force added by the solent stay.
I guess I would feel ok about it if I had just replaced my back stay.

 

[Maine Sail]

Hermit...

All this discussion is well and good but having been an owner of a C-30 all I can say is if it's bad enough for a storm jib you should be heading for home or have already been there.

I wouldn't try to turn a C-30 into something it is not nor was intended for. I sailed in 30+ a number of times (4-8 footers) with my C-30 and she is not to comfortable in those conditions even with a storm jib. I had one made that went up the luff groove and used it twice. I then realized the boat sailed nearly as well in those conditions with about 10-20% of the 135 genny out and this required no sail changes. Listen to the weather, be wise, and your storm jib will collect dust. Of course if you're planning a big crossing I'd opt for a storm jib like an ATN or one designed to fly in the furler foil with a deep third reef for the main to keep her balanced....

 

[Bad Obsession]

I carry a 100% jib that I put on my boat if the winds are forcasted around 15 knots or better. I can carry a full main and the full 100% jib in 15 knots almost up to 20 knots. At 20 knots I reef the main. I can also roll in some of the 100% jib to reduce sail area.

After that point if I get overpowered it is time to drop the jib and start the engine and run the engine with a reefed main. I really don't like being in those conditions.