Hello all stations, I took Gary Wyngarden's lastest skipper's quiz and missed the question on horn signals--the differrence between inland and international COLREG rules. I think Gary has been too long on Orcas Island in the San Juans and is out of touch with the rest of the cruising world (I'm teasing--Island living is great). However, I do have a question for many of you. I was a CG licesed skipper for 100 tons for many years. I spent most of my time on sailboats teaching and skippering in my local waters. I have since retired but I still hold my license in great respect because of the professions who ply our waters. I have not heard a horn signal from a commercial craft in years except during fog and the skippers tell me it is for the smaller vessels around them. As large ships come into the Puget Sound waters, they are required to contact by radio (many of them call it their phone) to either Seattle Traffic or Vancouver Traffic. Once they pick up their piloit they stay within traffic separation lanes. All communication is done by VHF radio. I have been in the wheel house of some Washington State Ferries and have talked to captains that take their jobs seriously. They tell me that they use the fog signal just to let the pleasure craft know their whereabouts. With other ferries they use the "phone" (VHF). The ferry system evan has a special channel so they can talk to each other. But I also noticed when I was aboard a ferry that the windows are closed--that they probably could not hear some of our smaller boat horns that we use if they wanted to without stopping the ferry and walking out on the deck. The only efficient way to contact the ferries or any other commercial traffic is by VHF radio. The point I'm making is that the COLREGS about horn signals is archaic and out of date. The best research I've been able to do is to find some information that these were added to the "rules" in the early nineteen hundreds after several ships hit each other coming or going out of New York harbor. Radios were not commonly used then. I have to teach horn signals for both the ASA and the USPS curriculum, but I have very little to teach about VHF radio. I think it is backwards. My question to all of you is somewaht broad. How much do you use your (air) horn when sailing? Have you heard other vessels use a horn other than for fog? Do you blow one long (do you know how long a long blast is suppose to be?) when leaving your slip? Or the harbor entrence? The COLREGS say you are suppose to do that. Have you ever contracted a commercial vessel by VHF to clafify your or his intentions. I'll look forward to hearing your answers. Les
- Status
toot your horn
When leaving and returning to the marina we always give the horn a toot or two, not only does it alert river traffic that we are coming out, and some days they need it, but on the return it also alerts our dockmates that we are returning. We have an unwritten rule on my dock that when you return to your slip those that are around help you tie up. It makes it really nice on those windy days when you have to back in. it really affects the power boaters more than me with a 5' keel.
When leaving and returning to the marina we always give the horn a toot or two, not only does it alert river traffic that we are coming out, and some days they need it, but on the return it also alerts our dockmates that we are returning. We have an unwritten rule on my dock that when you return to your slip those that are around help you tie up. It makes it really nice on those windy days when you have to back in. it really affects the power boaters more than me with a 5' keel.
Got embarrssed by CG
I was coming into St Mary's river just of the Potomac this last year, when I heard a single horn blast from behind. Looked over my shoulder to see a 25ft CG boat coming up behind me. I called him on the radio and asked if he was honking at ME! The reply was "Captain we are asking permission to pass to starboard", of course you can. Then I remembered what a single blast means. Can't imagine what the Coasties thought of me (Dum shit, doesn't even know his signals) I almost never hear horn signals. When getting near ship traffic I will call them and let them know my intentions. "Barge south bound off of Cobb Island, this is sailboat Java at your 2:00 and will pass behind you". I always get a thank you in reply. Also this last summer off of Windmill Pt on the Chesapeake I heard the following: "Sail vessel just north of buoy 59a southbound. I need to know your intentions I'm a draft restricted vessel and I need you to move." No anaswer, then a very loud prolonged blast of the horn. I don't know were the skipper was but I bet he moved after that..... You would not believe the amount of boats running around not listening to their radios.. Jim S/V Java
I was coming into St Mary's river just of the Potomac this last year, when I heard a single horn blast from behind. Looked over my shoulder to see a 25ft CG boat coming up behind me. I called him on the radio and asked if he was honking at ME! The reply was "Captain we are asking permission to pass to starboard", of course you can. Then I remembered what a single blast means. Can't imagine what the Coasties thought of me (Dum shit, doesn't even know his signals) I almost never hear horn signals. When getting near ship traffic I will call them and let them know my intentions. "Barge south bound off of Cobb Island, this is sailboat Java at your 2:00 and will pass behind you". I always get a thank you in reply. Also this last summer off of Windmill Pt on the Chesapeake I heard the following: "Sail vessel just north of buoy 59a southbound. I need to know your intentions I'm a draft restricted vessel and I need you to move." No anaswer, then a very loud prolonged blast of the horn. I don't know were the skipper was but I bet he moved after that..... You would not believe the amount of boats running around not listening to their radios.. Jim S/V Java
Funny that you should ask!
We sail in Galveston Bay and the slip is in Clear Lake in a marina with 700+ slips. In close proximity are numerous other large marinas. On a warm weekend afternoon you get in line to make your way to the Bay from Clear Lake. Quicker boats frequently pass. And you know, I can't remember the last time that I heard a horn from another vessel under any conditions. I usually sound a single blast when in the fairway to alert others before entering the marina main channel, but don't remember anyone sounding in return. So much for regulations! Jon
We sail in Galveston Bay and the slip is in Clear Lake in a marina with 700+ slips. In close proximity are numerous other large marinas. On a warm weekend afternoon you get in line to make your way to the Bay from Clear Lake. Quicker boats frequently pass. And you know, I can't remember the last time that I heard a horn from another vessel under any conditions. I usually sound a single blast when in the fairway to alert others before entering the marina main channel, but don't remember anyone sounding in return. So much for regulations! Jon
strange
I sail on the Tenn Tom Waterway here in Alabama and when meeting a Tug or any other comerical trafic on the river they always use horn signals and instruct you which side to pass or meet on ...... everything works out great.
I sail on the Tenn Tom Waterway here in Alabama and when meeting a Tug or any other comerical trafic on the river they always use horn signals and instruct you which side to pass or meet on ...... everything works out great.
both ways
On my sailboat, I am normally pretty quiet. I keep a vigilant watch on my VHF and note/remember the calls of commercial boat from their securite calls. I contact vessels as necessary, to be certain that there is no ambiguity when necessary. BUT on my other ships (I am active duty Navy-Surface guy) the ship's whistle gets its work exactly per COLREGS. The exception I have experienced in Thimble Shoals waters and the San Juans (your neck) was VHF calls stating "see you on one [whistle]". Pretty obvious. WRT blind bends....always. My rule of thumb has been and remains - ensure clarity in the "other" pilothouse.
On my sailboat, I am normally pretty quiet. I keep a vigilant watch on my VHF and note/remember the calls of commercial boat from their securite calls. I contact vessels as necessary, to be certain that there is no ambiguity when necessary. BUT on my other ships (I am active duty Navy-Surface guy) the ship's whistle gets its work exactly per COLREGS. The exception I have experienced in Thimble Shoals waters and the San Juans (your neck) was VHF calls stating "see you on one [whistle]". Pretty obvious. WRT blind bends....always. My rule of thumb has been and remains - ensure clarity in the "other" pilothouse.
Interesting question (and answers)
How much do you use your (air) horn when sailing? Never. I have one, and actually plan on buying a better one, but I never use it on my O'Day 25. Most of my sailing is on the local lake, but in three trips to Corpus Christi, on trip by water from there to Aransas Pass (about 16 miles) and one form Corpus to Port Isabel (about 125 miles), I never heard, or used, a horn, except late one night trying to get the attention of a tow boat to get them to turn off their blinding spotlights. ----- Have you heard other vessels use a horn other than for fog? No ----- Do you blow one long (do you know how long a long blast is suppose to be?) when leaving your slip? Or the harbor entrence? No to all of the above, except I THINK a "long blast" is 1 second. ----- Have you ever contracted a commercial vessel by VHF to clafify your or his intentions. Yes, sort of. We were on the trip to Aransas Pass, sailing in the ship channel, on a beam reach on a starboard tack. We were just about in the middle of the channel, when I heard a request from a BIG ship ahead of us to identify ourselves. I got on the radio, and did so. He then stated "I want you to pass to my port side, please move to the side of the channel to give me plenty of room". Of course, I couldn't turn directly into the wind, so switched to a close haul, and started moving over. About 3 minutes later, he called on the radio "I need you to move to the side of the channel," I responded that I was doing so, and he said "Not fast enough, I need you to move to the side of the channel immediately" I really felt we had plenty of room, but I fired up the outboard, and headed straight to the other side. He commented as he passed, to another ship captain "Watch for the sailboaters out there, they don't know what they're doing". I was slightly embarrassed (we had my old college roommate and his wife on board for a July 4th holiday), but later, thinking it all over, I felt where I REALLY messed up was letting him tell me what I needed to do. I should have corrected him, and stated that I would move to the other side of the channel (giving me the wind to my back to go directly to the side) instead of having him pass to port. We recently purchased a Coronado 35 that we're keeping in Lake Pontchartrain, and I plan on having a horn closer by, and using it.
How much do you use your (air) horn when sailing? Never. I have one, and actually plan on buying a better one, but I never use it on my O'Day 25. Most of my sailing is on the local lake, but in three trips to Corpus Christi, on trip by water from there to Aransas Pass (about 16 miles) and one form Corpus to Port Isabel (about 125 miles), I never heard, or used, a horn, except late one night trying to get the attention of a tow boat to get them to turn off their blinding spotlights. ----- Have you heard other vessels use a horn other than for fog? No ----- Do you blow one long (do you know how long a long blast is suppose to be?) when leaving your slip? Or the harbor entrence? No to all of the above, except I THINK a "long blast" is 1 second. ----- Have you ever contracted a commercial vessel by VHF to clafify your or his intentions. Yes, sort of. We were on the trip to Aransas Pass, sailing in the ship channel, on a beam reach on a starboard tack. We were just about in the middle of the channel, when I heard a request from a BIG ship ahead of us to identify ourselves. I got on the radio, and did so. He then stated "I want you to pass to my port side, please move to the side of the channel to give me plenty of room". Of course, I couldn't turn directly into the wind, so switched to a close haul, and started moving over. About 3 minutes later, he called on the radio "I need you to move to the side of the channel," I responded that I was doing so, and he said "Not fast enough, I need you to move to the side of the channel immediately" I really felt we had plenty of room, but I fired up the outboard, and headed straight to the other side. He commented as he passed, to another ship captain "Watch for the sailboaters out there, they don't know what they're doing". I was slightly embarrassed (we had my old college roommate and his wife on board for a July 4th holiday), but later, thinking it all over, I felt where I REALLY messed up was letting him tell me what I needed to do. I should have corrected him, and stated that I would move to the other side of the channel (giving me the wind to my back to go directly to the side) instead of having him pass to port. We recently purchased a Coronado 35 that we're keeping in Lake Pontchartrain, and I plan on having a horn closer by, and using it.
Herb, I am not an expert but if a BIG SHIP tells
to move out of his way, I move out of his way as fast as possible. We are suppose to give way to the big boys. abe
to move out of his way, I move out of his way as fast as possible. We are suppose to give way to the big boys. abe
Might doesn't necessarily make right
I can appreciate the sense of urgency that the skipper of a large commercial vesel might have while trying to maneuver in a narrow channel with recreational sailboats close by. However, it doesn't necessarily give him/her the right, as stand-on vessel, to instruct the skipper of the sailboat. I can think of two good reasons: 1) the sailboat skipper may have a different perspective and may see a course of action that is better than the one being demanded 2) each skipper is ultimately responsible for his/her own vessel. I have a hard time seeing the sailboat skipper follow the commercial skipper's instructions, get into difficulty and then telling the Coast Guard later, "Well, he TOLD me to do it" as an explanation. Advising the commercial skipper of his own constraint to movement due to wind direction and offering an alternative solution makes the sailboat skipper an active (and potentially equal) participant in the avoidance maneuver, which demonstrates a certain degree of competence. Although (hindsight being 20-20), maintaining a closer watch in an active shipping channel might have prevented the situation in the first place... Peter H23 "Raven"
I can appreciate the sense of urgency that the skipper of a large commercial vesel might have while trying to maneuver in a narrow channel with recreational sailboats close by. However, it doesn't necessarily give him/her the right, as stand-on vessel, to instruct the skipper of the sailboat. I can think of two good reasons: 1) the sailboat skipper may have a different perspective and may see a course of action that is better than the one being demanded 2) each skipper is ultimately responsible for his/her own vessel. I have a hard time seeing the sailboat skipper follow the commercial skipper's instructions, get into difficulty and then telling the Coast Guard later, "Well, he TOLD me to do it" as an explanation. Advising the commercial skipper of his own constraint to movement due to wind direction and offering an alternative solution makes the sailboat skipper an active (and potentially equal) participant in the avoidance maneuver, which demonstrates a certain degree of competence. Although (hindsight being 20-20), maintaining a closer watch in an active shipping channel might have prevented the situation in the first place... Peter H23 "Raven"
Questions, Answers, and VHF
Do we use our horn? To date, only in fog. Do commercial vessels use horn? In our experience, almost universally when they are pulling out of slips. We sailed for several years out of Boston Harbor, VERY busy, and it was also very common for commercial ships either entering or preparing to exit the harbor to give 5 blasts just to kind of get everyone's attention. Do we correspond with commercial vessels via VHF? Routinely. In our home sailing area, Narragansett Bay and Rhode Island Sound there is a lot of commercial traffic, especially barge tows. Barge tows exiting NB into Rhode Island Sound have several possible routes that they might turn to, the two most common being heading East toward Buzzards Bay or Southwest down the coast. When sailing in RIS, We routinely ask the exiting barge tows what their intended course is, and we sail accordingly giving them a wide berth. But our real lesson in VHF was this summer cruising the coast of Maine. Everything that you have heard about Maine fog is true, and then some! The VHF is a crucial, indispensable tool for both commercial and pleasure traffic along the Maine coast. In the fog, commercial vessels routinely and at frequent intervals announce on channels 16 and 13 their position both by coordinates and local marks, their course and speed, and their destination. We often responded, letting such vessels know the same information for us, as did other vessels. Two memorable occasions were talking to the mailboat headed for Monhegan Island in the fog, and talking to a tanker coming up our stern headed up Penobscot Bay, also in the fog. But what really impressed us was that much of the pleasure traffic did the same thing! In Maine, if you are unwilling to go out when there is fog or a risk of fog, you don't go anywhere anytime soon, and navigating in low visibility situations is just part of boating in Maine, period. In fog, many of the pleasure boats are also on the VHF frequently announcing vessel name, position, course, speed, and destination. And it was amazing the dimension that this added to navigating in the fog. Most times that we were in the fog, we were able to specifically identify maybe 2/3 of the targets on our radar screen by the VHF talk, and we frequently talked back and forth, especially if we were close. The only exception to this was the lobster boats, who never seemed to use the VHF, probably because they would consume most of their working day on the VHF if they did. The entire summer in Maine was a profound lesson to us on the importance of the VHF, especially in low visibility navigation, and during that time we increased our comfort and skill with the VHF by several orders of magnitude. After this experience, back in our home area where fog is merely an occasional nuisance, we find VHF use by pleasure craft to be far too infrequent and unfortunately often not taken seriously and used for whimsical chatter. Yes, Yes, Yes, boating courses should place FAR more stress on the VHF and how to properly use it. That's our story, and we're stickin' to it. Carl Dupre s/v Syzygy
Do we use our horn? To date, only in fog. Do commercial vessels use horn? In our experience, almost universally when they are pulling out of slips. We sailed for several years out of Boston Harbor, VERY busy, and it was also very common for commercial ships either entering or preparing to exit the harbor to give 5 blasts just to kind of get everyone's attention. Do we correspond with commercial vessels via VHF? Routinely. In our home sailing area, Narragansett Bay and Rhode Island Sound there is a lot of commercial traffic, especially barge tows. Barge tows exiting NB into Rhode Island Sound have several possible routes that they might turn to, the two most common being heading East toward Buzzards Bay or Southwest down the coast. When sailing in RIS, We routinely ask the exiting barge tows what their intended course is, and we sail accordingly giving them a wide berth. But our real lesson in VHF was this summer cruising the coast of Maine. Everything that you have heard about Maine fog is true, and then some! The VHF is a crucial, indispensable tool for both commercial and pleasure traffic along the Maine coast. In the fog, commercial vessels routinely and at frequent intervals announce on channels 16 and 13 their position both by coordinates and local marks, their course and speed, and their destination. We often responded, letting such vessels know the same information for us, as did other vessels. Two memorable occasions were talking to the mailboat headed for Monhegan Island in the fog, and talking to a tanker coming up our stern headed up Penobscot Bay, also in the fog. But what really impressed us was that much of the pleasure traffic did the same thing! In Maine, if you are unwilling to go out when there is fog or a risk of fog, you don't go anywhere anytime soon, and navigating in low visibility situations is just part of boating in Maine, period. In fog, many of the pleasure boats are also on the VHF frequently announcing vessel name, position, course, speed, and destination. And it was amazing the dimension that this added to navigating in the fog. Most times that we were in the fog, we were able to specifically identify maybe 2/3 of the targets on our radar screen by the VHF talk, and we frequently talked back and forth, especially if we were close. The only exception to this was the lobster boats, who never seemed to use the VHF, probably because they would consume most of their working day on the VHF if they did. The entire summer in Maine was a profound lesson to us on the importance of the VHF, especially in low visibility navigation, and during that time we increased our comfort and skill with the VHF by several orders of magnitude. After this experience, back in our home area where fog is merely an occasional nuisance, we find VHF use by pleasure craft to be far too infrequent and unfortunately often not taken seriously and used for whimsical chatter. Yes, Yes, Yes, boating courses should place FAR more stress on the VHF and how to properly use it. That's our story, and we're stickin' to it. Carl Dupre s/v Syzygy
Legal issues of horn use
You guys are ignoring the legal issues raised by failure to use a horn as required by the rules of the road. Failure to use required horn signals, leaves a boat operator w/o any defense in the unlikely event that damage from collision occurs. You may say that you were on the VHF to the other guy, but that won't satisfy the court or the insurance company!!!
You guys are ignoring the legal issues raised by failure to use a horn as required by the rules of the road. Failure to use required horn signals, leaves a boat operator w/o any defense in the unlikely event that damage from collision occurs. You may say that you were on the VHF to the other guy, but that won't satisfy the court or the insurance company!!!
Emptied my air horn can a few days ago
I did an overnight solo sail on our P42 last week, and the fog on the Chesapeake Bay, Dividing Creek, on the second day was the thickist I have seen. Maybe 500 feet visibility at best and I had to get back. I could not see the markers on the creek entrance except when I was beside them. ON 1 watt channel 16 I made a number of "safty calls" alerting nearby vessels of my position and intentions. I would announce "this is a safety call to any vessel in the vacinity of . . ., etc." I never got a response so I assumed there was nobody else nutty enough to be out there in such a fog. I would blow the air horn every 5 to 10 minutes in a 360 degree blast and I would ring my bell repeatedly in between. I have mapping GPS and relied entirely on that to get me back 15 miles to my marina. I motored at 3 to 4 kts for about 10 miles [wind on my nose] then sailed at 5 to 6 kts for 5 miles in 10 kts of breeze. I didn't realize wind and fog could go together. Never saw another boat. I did hear two large commercial ships in the cut channel off Windmill Point in the Chesapeake making safety calls on 16 and claiming "zero visiblity." I have only used my horn 1 other time, but when this trip was over, the can was empty. It was one of the most challenging and enjoyable trips I have had at sea.
I did an overnight solo sail on our P42 last week, and the fog on the Chesapeake Bay, Dividing Creek, on the second day was the thickist I have seen. Maybe 500 feet visibility at best and I had to get back. I could not see the markers on the creek entrance except when I was beside them. ON 1 watt channel 16 I made a number of "safty calls" alerting nearby vessels of my position and intentions. I would announce "this is a safety call to any vessel in the vacinity of . . ., etc." I never got a response so I assumed there was nobody else nutty enough to be out there in such a fog. I would blow the air horn every 5 to 10 minutes in a 360 degree blast and I would ring my bell repeatedly in between. I have mapping GPS and relied entirely on that to get me back 15 miles to my marina. I motored at 3 to 4 kts for about 10 miles [wind on my nose] then sailed at 5 to 6 kts for 5 miles in 10 kts of breeze. I didn't realize wind and fog could go together. Never saw another boat. I did hear two large commercial ships in the cut channel off Windmill Point in the Chesapeake making safety calls on 16 and claiming "zero visiblity." I have only used my horn 1 other time, but when this trip was over, the can was empty. It was one of the most challenging and enjoyable trips I have had at sea.
Thanks and a bit of information
First, thanks for all the input. Very fascinating and helpful. I hope others will add their experiences as well. For WJSSR, you might be interested in the following: From the book. (h) A vessel that reaches agreement with another vessel in a head-on, crossing, or overtaking situation, as for example, by using the radiotelephone as prescribed by the Vessel Bridge to Bridge Radiotelephone act Stat. 164; 33 U.S.C. 1201 et seq.), is not obliged to sound the whistle signals prescribed by this Rule, but may do so. If agreement is not reached, then whistle signals shall be exchanged in a timely manner and shall prevail. Thanks all for responding.
First, thanks for all the input. Very fascinating and helpful. I hope others will add their experiences as well. For WJSSR, you might be interested in the following: From the book. (h) A vessel that reaches agreement with another vessel in a head-on, crossing, or overtaking situation, as for example, by using the radiotelephone as prescribed by the Vessel Bridge to Bridge Radiotelephone act Stat. 164; 33 U.S.C. 1201 et seq.), is not obliged to sound the whistle signals prescribed by this Rule, but may do so. If agreement is not reached, then whistle signals shall be exchanged in a timely manner and shall prevail. Thanks all for responding.
- Status