I need some serious advice!!

[paiscool]

I bought a Catalina 320 1995.I replaced the toilet with a new Jabsco.The previous owner was terrible at any maintenance and the same went for the sanitation system.Here is the situation
The holding tank is a Ronco.It has the hose to the pumpout receptacle at the bottom of the tank to the deck.The hose from the toilet goes to the upper outlet on the tank. The vent hose goes from the top of the tank to the vent near deck.
I went to pump it out.I had the raw water thru hull closed.Nothing came out of the tank.The tank shows signs of being full including the side bowed out slightly.Here are some symptoms
1. If I go #1 in the head and dry pump it come out the vent
2. When I pumped out I put water from hose down the pumpout opening and it came out the vent.
I dont understand.If the Pumpout hose is blocked at the bottom of the tank,how could I put water from a hose in there and it came out the vent at the top of the tank? I understand if I pump the heads why the ..... comes out the vent.It is at the top of the tank.
Thats the first part.The second part is if I want to replace the holding tank,how do I get the existing nastiness from the tank so I can remove the hoses and pull it out?Surely someone has had this happen....
Please advise.

 

[Joe]

I am definitely no expert but it would seem that the product in your tank has solidified. There is a product you can add to the tank to break up the solid so it can be removed. Check your local marine or RV supplier.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Your tank is definitely full!

That's why the sides of the tank are bulging. My first thought was a blocked tank vent...but if the flow of water out the vent is robust, it rules that out. It also doesn't explain how water down the pumpout comes out out the vent. I don't think the water that overflowed WAS the water you put down the pumpout...I'm 99% certain that adding water just forced water or waste already in the tank out the vent. That would also rule out a blocked tank discharge fitting or line.

Otoh, if what came out the vent was barely a trickle, a blocked tank vent IS your problem. The most common locations for a vent blockage are the vent thru-hull and the connection to the tank--both the tank vent fitting and that end of the vent line. Check 'em both and scrape out what you find with a screwdriver blade or whatever works. If there's a screen in the vent thru-hull, knock it out...screens cause more problems than they solve. If there's a vent line filter in the vent line, remove it!

Is there a y-valve in the pumpout line that lets you choose between pumpout and dumping the tank at sea? If so, did you make sure it was aimed to open the path to deck pumpout fitting? Or...it's possible that particular pumpout wasn't working....try a different pumpout.

Check your plumbing to make sure it's actually plumbed the way it's supposed to be...you wouldn't be the first person to put hoses on the wrong fittings. And check for kinks too.

We'll figure out what's going on and solve it...meanwhile, do NOT use the toilet again or attempt to pump out till we do!

Unless you just want a larger tank or the tank has cracked and is leaking, there's NO reason to replace a Ronco tank...they're the best built tank on the market...at least 50% thicker than any off-the-shelf tank. So why do you want to replace it?

Joe...if you know of a product that'll break up tank sludge that's turned to "concrete," please tell ME what it is...'cuz I don't know of anything that'll do that, that won't also damage the system. I suspect you've confused tank sludge with sea water mineral buildup in hoses...which CAN be dissolved with muriatic acid. You don't have to go to a marine or RV supplier for that...it's available from any hardware store.

 

[paiscool]

Thanks for the fast response

There is no Y valve and/or macerator. The stuff that came out the vent came out shooting so I dont think the vent is clogged. I only was going to replace the tank if a serious sludge issue developed.
The other problem I see is if the hoses ARE backward.I dont know how I canchange them without disconnecting them at the tank.And you know what that means.So I am back to how to empty the tank.

 

[kloudie1]

Backwards? Ya mean that the toilet discharge goes to the bottom of the tank and the pump out hose goes to the top?? If so, the only way you are going to get the stuff out is to pinch off the toilet discharge hose with a big C clamp, or a kink as in Peggy’s previous post, and then remove it from the toilet and (very quickly) put the pump out sucker on that hose then unclamp it.. unless you are lucky enough to have an access port in the tank top that could be opened and used to put the sucker hose into the, uhhhhh liquid.. This is gonna sound strange, but if you can get the toilet end of the hose above the level in the tank, nothing will leak out .. I have no idea of your configuration, but think taking the sea water hose off and unbolting the head from the floor.. lifting it up so the joker valve is above the tank top level.. then taking the hose loose.. If all else fails, before I’d spread fragrant juice all over the boat, I’d probably cut a 3 or 4” hole in the tank top and insert the sucker pipe to empty the tank.. You could make an access hole cover from a piece of Starboard or fiberglass to screw and RTV on to re-seal the hole.. Not a fun job.. Good luck dealing with it !

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Kloudie's on the right track...

I think I MIGHT have a solution that's not as dangerous: a shop vac... If the hose has a diameter that's smaller than 1.5", you should be able to run it through the joker valve into the head discharge line to pump out the tank. How many times depends on how big the tank is and how much the shop vac holds. The only dilemma: what to do with it from the shop vac.

Which takes me to Plan B (that I would move up to Plan A if it were my boat): Pay the yard to do this. It's not difficult IF you have the right equipment...they do, you don't. It might cost you $100...but that's less than twice what'll it cost you to clean up a spill and the gallon of PureAyre you'll need to use to eliminate the odor.

Btw...who reversed the hose connections--you? or the PO? If you did it, well...the good news is, it's a mistake you'll NEVER EVER make again! If the P.O. did it, you've gotten a lesson in the value of a pre-purchase survey.

 

[paiscool]

First of all

First I am not sure that the hoses are reversed.I assume that if they are that this would keep the pumpout from working? That is the pump out would only suck the top layer out?
I thought about the Shop vac.Even rigging up some hoses to both pump out my tank and then have the pumpout empty the shop vac.And then toss the shop vac.......
If the hoses are reversed,then I can rig up an extension to the Head hose at the head and pump it that way via the pumpout at the marina.
If the hoses are NOT reversed? Could I still pump it out via the head discharge hose or would the suction not be enough? Would a shop vac then be the only way from the head discharge.......
The problem,I have Peggy is that there is no boatyard at my marina.I am not sure who to trust with this task other than myself because "OOPS" is not something I want to face.I am here in Texas and a long hot summer of festering sewage is not conducive to boating.
Also I did have a survey done.But the head leaked and was noted.He did not check if the hoses were on the correct outlet.Just noted the condition as I would expect.

 

[CalebD]

You could try speaking to the surveyor you used. He/she may know of a reputable tradesman that could help you. They might even consent to going back to your boat to help you getting your tank pumped out for a small fee or gratis.

 

[Stu Jackson]

My tank's vent is connected at a fitting on the top of the tank. I can take the hose off that fitting and remove the fitting and see inside the tank. Therefore, even if your vent hose is kinked, blocked or fouled, you can vent the tank that way when you get to a pumpout station.

I say IF, and repeat it for clarity, 'cuz we're still not sure if your hoses are backwards.

Good luck.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I finally figured out the right way to do this:

We've been trying to do it the hard way...the right way is so obvious--and so simple!--I'm amazed that a) it took me this long...and b) none of y'all thought of it first. It's exactly what the yard would do:

Remove the hose from the fitting at the top of the tank...doesn't matter whether the tank is plumbed backward or not. Stick the shop vac hose into the tank through that fitting. Do whatever it takes to make the hose long enough to reach the bottom of the tank. Your idea to have the pumpout empty the shop is a good one. No need to toss the shop vac...running plenty of detergent and water through it will leave it cleaner than it prob'ly is before you use it to empty the tank!

Once you've managed to empty the tank you'll have to figure out what caused this problem and fix it...so take some extra time to rinse out the system VERY thoroughly and pump out the rinse water. Then trace your plumbing to find out what the heck is going on! If the system isn't plumbed backward, the hose coming from the bottom of the tank should be the easiest to trace...'cuz that hose will go straight to the deck pumpout fitting. If it doesn't, find out where it does go. Do NOT give me "but the hoses go through places I can't see"....do whatever it takes to CREATE visual access!! Then please let us know what you find. If the hoses stink, this is definitely the time to replace 'em!

I think you should be able to take it from here.

 

[kloudie1]

Excellent !! You've aced us again, Peggy ! Probably why you have the title (head Mistress) and we don't .(he said while raising a little Captn' Morgan and ice). Other thing I was thinking is that IF there is a vented loop in the head discharge line.. it will be above the liquid level in the tank .. you could simply take off the tank side of the loop fitting (nothing should come out as long as the end stays above the vent exit level) and tightly stick the pump-out hose in that hose and that will get the stuff out..
PA.. Have you verified that the plumbing is backwards? That will definitely not allow a pump-out because the air vent is about the same level so all you'd pump out would be air sucked through the vent.

 

[paiscool]

Thanks everyone and especially Peggy

for using your holiday to help out a fellow sailor.I am going to do exactly as Peggy said.I am going to concentrate on pumping out the system,and then diagnose why the problem exists. I have a 6 gallon shopvac so 4 trips to the pumpout with the vac and I should be good.I think thought that when I am done I will definitely drink enough bourbon to forget this traumatic event.
I need to see if I can get the stuff out throught the vent.The tube looks like it might be a 3/4 to 1 inch tube.so I will build a graduated tube system and also make it long enough to vac it from outside the boat.I dont want any spills especially into the bilge.
One more question.Is it possible that the pumpout has to generate a certain level of vacuum to pump out a boat? In other words,can a pumpout work for some boats and not for others? There were many boats that pumped out that day and acted like they had success but when I pumped out and put my hand over the nozzle,it didnt seem like there was a lot of suction.The first thing I am going to try is a different pumpout at a different marina and then the Peggy plan.............

 

[Stu Jackson]

The first thing I am going to try is a different pumpout at a different marina and then the Peggy plan.............

Glad we could help, but I think ya got ti backwards. You NEED to trace out your plumbing and then use Peggie's plan. The vent's from the top of the tank so what do you think will come out of it?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Nooooooo...not through the vent

You cannot pump out through the vent...'cuz if you block the vent, the pump will pull a vacuum. Besides, it's only a 5/8" ID line...you can't get anything bigger than a drinking straw into it. Plus, you'd have to run a tube all the way down the vent line and then all the way to the bottom of the tank.

Step 1. Get the tank empty and rinsed out. The ONLY way you're gonna do that without risk of a spill is through the 1.5" fitting on the top of the tank. It took me long enough to realize that...and it's the only thing that makes sense. Remove the hose AND the threaded fitting.

Step 2. Trace the plumbing.

Step 3. Whatever the problem turns out to be, fix it!

You might also check out the link in my signature...it goes to a comprehensive "marine toilets and holding tanks 101" manual that should help you learn to operate and maintain your system to prevent problems...which is a lot easier than solving 'em.

 

[paiscool]

Little problem Peggy!!!

The fitting on the top of the tank is glued in and the only access is a L fitting which goes to a 3/4" ? hose that goes to the vent.There is no way I am sucking anything substanial out there.And the large hoses are correct.
I have connected the shop vac directly to the deck fitiing and it seals.But the way the shop vac whines it seems like a airlock or something and nothing comes out.However if I blow instead of vacuum,stuff comes out the vent tube at the deck.
Let me ask a hypothetical question.If the tank is so full that there is no room for air is it possible that I have some kind of situation that wont allow me to vacuum.
The other possibility.Should I disconnect the head from the top hose.Maybe that would allow air to come in so I can vaccumm enough out to clear the vent?

 

[paiscool]

Okay Here is the answer!!

I managed to pump out almost the entire tank.I cut a 4 1/2" hole and installed an inspection plate with a clear cover.I can see the bottom of the tank.It looks like a heavy goo that is semi liquid and composed of toilet paper and whatever.It would not pump out the same way the water did throught the drill pump and hose arrangement I made and used.The idiot flushed TP!!!!!
Anyway,what is next? Do I add water to the tank now and let it set to see if it dissolves this mess?
Please let me know.......Thanks

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I know what I'd do at this point...

I'd pull out the tank and all the hoses and start over! 'Cuz whether you need to replace the hoses now or not, you will and some point...and you're not gonna be able to remove fittings that are glued in. You also now have a 4.5" hole in the tank that's almost certain to emit odor...AND a mass of goo in the tank that I would NOT want to analyze up close and personal!

Re your comment, "the idiot flushed TP!" There's no legitimate reason to avoid flushing TP, as long as it's the quick-dissolve stuff. However wet wipes, facial tissue, paper towels, condoms and tampons are definitely a no-no. I suspect it's not TP, but "whatever" that's clogged your pumpout line.

The answer to your hypthetical question is no.

I guess it hasn't occurred to you that now that you DO have 4.5" hole in the top of the tank you can now use the pumpout...either directly through that hole or via the pumpout fitting after you've tried blasting away at the gooey mass with with a hose to dilute it. If that doesn't work, reach in with a long stick and fish out the stuff in the goo that's created the clog. Water will dilute and stir up the rest so it can be pumped out.

SURELY you can take it from HERE now! Good luck!

 

[Stu Jackson]

I did a search on "holding tank" and found many, many discussions. Here's one: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=702240&highlight=holding tank

YOU, and you alone or with help, simply have to clean it out. Or follow Peggie's advice, which I would do if it was my boat. We use the single ply TP and never have had any issues. Good luck.

 

[Roger Long]

Please advise.

Are you sure it is all coming out the vent? Look for a low spot in the vent hose run. Those can get filled when the boat heels or the tank is overfilled. The next time you use the head, the air displaced by the incoming stuff shoots stuff out the vent. It used to make me thing I had filled the tank before I fixed the hose run.

As for pulling the tank, if you fill it with water and pump it out a couple times, it shouldn't be so bad as to cause PTS or recurring nightmares. Keep some Saran wrap and duct tape handy to quickly seal hoses and opening if you are nervous. I don't even do that and it isn't as bad as you would thing.

I take it you are not or have never been a father.

 

[paiscool]

Just a final post on this saga!!

Thanks to the Port I installed on the Ronco tank,I was able to use a ShopVac and get all the residual remains that was stopping me from pumping out.The remainder,(about 5 gals) reminded me of paper mache.It was a goo that was so thick it was not going to be removed any other way.I got it removed,disposed of it responsibly and flushed the tank with some water and now have a VERY clean tank and a working system. I do want to point out a couple of things!
First,Thanks Peggy for your input.The observation port does not smelll at all and is now something I can use to observe and use if necessary.I do however disagree with you about the TP,I really dont care if it is marine TP,paper is paper but you are the xpert not me.
Second,I guarrantee,I will be taking care of this tank now! That was the nastiest job I have done in a long time but no accidents in the boat so no stink!!!!