Anyone heard talk that any of the big boat manufacturers are trying/planning to use a Prius(or other)type hybrid propulsion system in production boats anytime soon?? Although I don't own a Prius, I found it's horsepower information interesting: "Powering the new Prius are a 78-horsepower, 1.5-liter four-cylinder engine and a 67-horsepower electric motor. The electric motor makes its horsepower from 1200 to about 1500 rpm, whereas the gasoline engine produces peak power at about 5000 rpm. The two powerplants work well together, with the torquey electric motor boosting low-rpm acceleration and the gasoline engine taking over at higher revs." Considering the energy gain from the prop to a hybrid system while under sail ( ala, shaft generators, etc) it would seem to make sense.
Hybrid Propulsion
- Thread starter Buck2796
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I have read...
...that some of the charter companies have electric motor cats in their fleets. (e.g.The Moorings)! But I don't know of other types, yet. But it would help business prospects, if they did.
...that some of the charter companies have electric motor cats in their fleets. (e.g.The Moorings)! But I don't know of other types, yet. But it would help business prospects, if they did.
It takes very little power to push a boat at 50 percent of hull
speed and a battery bank could serve as ballast. 10 Horse power diesel would be enough to keep the batteries charged or for motoring for long periods. I think the complexity would make any benefits marginal.
speed and a battery bank could serve as ballast. 10 Horse power diesel would be enough to keep the batteries charged or for motoring for long periods. I think the complexity would make any benefits marginal.
Complexity may not be a problem
I own a Toyota Camry Hybrid. Perhaps there is complex technology at play but it does not manifest itself in any way I can see. We have had the car for 18 months and have never even popped the hood! Hybrids have been around now for over a decade and have proven to be very reliable. Of course a marine environment is tough but a car's life is not so easy either. The boating and RV industries are getting hammered by the fuel prices. They will come up with solutions although I would bet that the major focus will be on powerboats. That is the market segment getting killed by fuel cost.
I own a Toyota Camry Hybrid. Perhaps there is complex technology at play but it does not manifest itself in any way I can see. We have had the car for 18 months and have never even popped the hood! Hybrids have been around now for over a decade and have proven to be very reliable. Of course a marine environment is tough but a car's life is not so easy either. The boating and RV industries are getting hammered by the fuel prices. They will come up with solutions although I would bet that the major focus will be on powerboats. That is the market segment getting killed by fuel cost.
RandyK, And sail boats are simple. Just pull that big
piece of cloth up the mast and pull the rope attached to the boom and and when the wind blows to boat goes and it doesn't cost anything. I hope in the time you have had the car someone has serviced the engine. That's that noisey thingy that starts when you want to go faster or farther than the battery will take you.
piece of cloth up the mast and pull the rope attached to the boom and and when the wind blows to boat goes and it doesn't cost anything. I hope in the time you have had the car someone has serviced the engine. That's that noisey thingy that starts when you want to go faster or farther than the battery will take you.
Well Ross,
Sometimes, (like 75% of the time), when you want to go from A to B... dag-gone it, there just ISN'T any wind; or it's blowing from the wrong direction, and the big clothie thing just won't make the boat go where you want. Dang it ! ! Not having the patience to wait a week or so till the wind thing will work good, I crank up the noisey thing,... but,... now it costs lots more to make it go "put-put" than it used to ... Maybe they could make the noisey thing quiter and use lots less fuel, and other goodie goodie things. Wouldn't that be "JUST GREAT!" ?
Sometimes, (like 75% of the time), when you want to go from A to B... dag-gone it, there just ISN'T any wind; or it's blowing from the wrong direction, and the big clothie thing just won't make the boat go where you want. Dang it ! ! Not having the patience to wait a week or so till the wind thing will work good, I crank up the noisey thing,... but,... now it costs lots more to make it go "put-put" than it used to ... Maybe they could make the noisey thing quiter and use lots less fuel, and other goodie goodie things. Wouldn't that be "JUST GREAT!" ?
Buck, I absolutely agree. The point I was making is that the more pieces you add
a propulsion system the more complex it becomes and the more places you have for a failure. With an engine and a gear box turning a propeller there is a minimum number of components. Add a battery bank and electric drive and all of the controllers involved and one day you will wish for simplicity.
a propulsion system the more complex it becomes and the more places you have for a failure. With an engine and a gear box turning a propeller there is a minimum number of components. Add a battery bank and electric drive and all of the controllers involved and one day you will wish for simplicity.
Point Well Taken, Ross,
BUT, with a larger cruising sailboat; when you add a large battery bank, a generator, an invertor, as well as the engine, transmissing, etc., you have as much (or more) complexity as you would have w/ a hybrid propulsion system; which, by now, has been perfected fairly well. Just MHO.
BUT, with a larger cruising sailboat; when you add a large battery bank, a generator, an invertor, as well as the engine, transmissing, etc., you have as much (or more) complexity as you would have w/ a hybrid propulsion system; which, by now, has been perfected fairly well. Just MHO.
Up here in Michigan
We have a building on Muskegon Lake that feeds into Lake Michigan run by Grand Valley U that is entirely powered by fuel cells. This is no small building either ( 3 floors and the size of a decent Best Buy). The purpose of the institute is to explore fuel cell usage in all common products. I hope this fall myself and Brian Torrensen will be pitching a proposal to them to take their fuel cell knowledge and the Torrensen families great knowledge of sailcraft and combine them to create a sailboat that will NEVER need any ouside power source( except every three to six years to swap out cells)to provide all power needed for propulsion and boat systems. Sounds really cool and I'm geeked to be part. More later as this unfolds. Pray for Wind, Lugeman
We have a building on Muskegon Lake that feeds into Lake Michigan run by Grand Valley U that is entirely powered by fuel cells. This is no small building either ( 3 floors and the size of a decent Best Buy). The purpose of the institute is to explore fuel cell usage in all common products. I hope this fall myself and Brian Torrensen will be pitching a proposal to them to take their fuel cell knowledge and the Torrensen families great knowledge of sailcraft and combine them to create a sailboat that will NEVER need any ouside power source( except every three to six years to swap out cells)to provide all power needed for propulsion and boat systems. Sounds really cool and I'm geeked to be part. More later as this unfolds. Pray for Wind, Lugeman
Like locomotives
When charging - the diesel runs at its optimum rpm to save fuel - the electrical engine can operate at any chosen speed with the juice..........
When charging - the diesel runs at its optimum rpm to save fuel - the electrical engine can operate at any chosen speed with the juice..........
several options
I did a simple google search - boat motors electric/diesel. It seems there are several options. Look at: practicalhybridsailor.org or click on the link below. I also thought I'd seen an ad in Latitude 38 for a manufacturer of marine diesel/hybrid motors, but I'm unable to find it now.
I did a simple google search - boat motors electric/diesel. It seems there are several options. Look at: practicalhybridsailor.org or click on the link below. I also thought I'd seen an ad in Latitude 38 for a manufacturer of marine diesel/hybrid motors, but I'm unable to find it now.
Buck, I gave this Idea serious consideration when I was rebuilding and repowerin
I think that as long as you used electric motors for propulsion and the diesel engine for charging the battery bank, with the ability to connect the generator output directly to the propulsion motors it would be a very workable and probably reliable system. The power curves for pushing a displacement hull are quite flat up to about 60 percent of hull speed after that the curve gets very steep. 10 HP will move a 15 ton 45 foot boat at about 4.8 knots but it will take 60 hp to get 9 knots. The numbers come from the Boatdiesel calculator
I think that as long as you used electric motors for propulsion and the diesel engine for charging the battery bank, with the ability to connect the generator output directly to the propulsion motors it would be a very workable and probably reliable system. The power curves for pushing a displacement hull are quite flat up to about 60 percent of hull speed after that the curve gets very steep. 10 HP will move a 15 ton 45 foot boat at about 4.8 knots but it will take 60 hp to get 9 knots. The numbers come from the Boatdiesel calculator
There's a difference in hybrid technology-
Ford's hybrid technology (and others, of course) uses the braking system to charge the battery bank. The energy used in slowing or stopping a car was completely wasted before... this new technology turns a negative (heat, friction, wear and tear) into a positive (electicity that's free!). While it's possible to charge batteries using water to turn the prop, or wind to turn a turbine, both of those actually create drag on the sailboat (okay, not much drag on the turbine, I'll admit!). Either way, the electricity is no longer free. How much fuel are you going to save on a SAILBOAT, and how long will you have to keep the boat until the savings offset the cost of the technology? A long, long time I think. Frankly, even now, hybrid technology on cars is a toss-up. The 5-6000 difference in cost will take alot of miles to amortize, and in southern states, even the estimated mileage on hybrids is an inside joke- you won't save much if anything if you run the AC!! Hope I haven't offended anyone. For hybrid owners, I applaud your willingness to help my planet!! cup
Ford's hybrid technology (and others, of course) uses the braking system to charge the battery bank. The energy used in slowing or stopping a car was completely wasted before... this new technology turns a negative (heat, friction, wear and tear) into a positive (electicity that's free!). While it's possible to charge batteries using water to turn the prop, or wind to turn a turbine, both of those actually create drag on the sailboat (okay, not much drag on the turbine, I'll admit!). Either way, the electricity is no longer free. How much fuel are you going to save on a SAILBOAT, and how long will you have to keep the boat until the savings offset the cost of the technology? A long, long time I think. Frankly, even now, hybrid technology on cars is a toss-up. The 5-6000 difference in cost will take alot of miles to amortize, and in southern states, even the estimated mileage on hybrids is an inside joke- you won't save much if anything if you run the AC!! Hope I haven't offended anyone. For hybrid owners, I applaud your willingness to help my planet!! cup
Electric braking is called regenerative braking
and all that you recover is the energy expended to accelerate. Probably the best place for this technology would be for postal letter carriers. They spend fully half of their time either slowing down or idleing at the box.
and all that you recover is the energy expended to accelerate. Probably the best place for this technology would be for postal letter carriers. They spend fully half of their time either slowing down or idleing at the box.
Available Now
OSSA (see link) offers a diesel-electric power which is I think what the charter cats use, maybe coupled with regenerative power from the props. Not fully hybrid because the batteries don't provide power, but I think they do to a limited extent on the cats. Obviously, we wouldn't want to dragging big props when sailing, but the diesel electric makes very good sense for medium-sized boats where the electric engine output is adequate and a genset is a plus. Running at constant RPM is a good way to optimize the sizing if you can avoid glazing the cylinder walls. I did go aboard a prototype Catalina that was a demo for fuel cell technology, but did not have one installed. It had huge banks of solar panels driving a huge battery bank and regenerative power. Slick idea, but needs a lot of work to make it real, and, who wants to drag that prop? Rick D.
OSSA (see link) offers a diesel-electric power which is I think what the charter cats use, maybe coupled with regenerative power from the props. Not fully hybrid because the batteries don't provide power, but I think they do to a limited extent on the cats. Obviously, we wouldn't want to dragging big props when sailing, but the diesel electric makes very good sense for medium-sized boats where the electric engine output is adequate and a genset is a plus. Running at constant RPM is a good way to optimize the sizing if you can avoid glazing the cylinder walls. I did go aboard a prototype Catalina that was a demo for fuel cell technology, but did not have one installed. It had huge banks of solar panels driving a huge battery bank and regenerative power. Slick idea, but needs a lot of work to make it real, and, who wants to drag that prop? Rick D.
Hybrids do not cost $5k more
Our Toyota Camry Hybrid was about $2k more than a comparable gas engine. Bear in mind that the items we want in a car (leather, GPS, electric seats, good sound, etc) come with the hybrid package. We more than made up for the extra $2k with the federal tax credit! Our mileage is 38 in town and 40 on the highway. AC makes little difference. Hybrid technology works and is not maintenance prone. Ross, the only thing the service guys have ever done is change oil and filters and such. These hybrids have been in Japan for over a decade and there is nothing about them that makes them less reliable. Still, others are right, this automobile hybrid technology is not for boats. The diesel-electric train model is much more on point.
Our Toyota Camry Hybrid was about $2k more than a comparable gas engine. Bear in mind that the items we want in a car (leather, GPS, electric seats, good sound, etc) come with the hybrid package. We more than made up for the extra $2k with the federal tax credit! Our mileage is 38 in town and 40 on the highway. AC makes little difference. Hybrid technology works and is not maintenance prone. Ross, the only thing the service guys have ever done is change oil and filters and such. These hybrids have been in Japan for over a decade and there is nothing about them that makes them less reliable. Still, others are right, this automobile hybrid technology is not for boats. The diesel-electric train model is much more on point.
Why???
Why are we thinking of Hybrid's for sail boats, we don't use much fuel anyway. I did hear some manufacture of power boats recently did come out with a hybrid,no mention of $$$. I would like to see more hybrid cars and trucks on the road,big trucks that use less fuel. Nick
Why are we thinking of Hybrid's for sail boats, we don't use much fuel anyway. I did hear some manufacture of power boats recently did come out with a hybrid,no mention of $$$. I would like to see more hybrid cars and trucks on the road,big trucks that use less fuel. Nick
randy, My wife has a toyota forty some thousand miles
and has had only routine maintenance done on it since 2000. They are good cars. Hybrids show their advantage in city driving there is almost no benefit on a long road trip with few stops.
and has had only routine maintenance done on it since 2000. They are good cars. Hybrids show their advantage in city driving there is almost no benefit on a long road trip with few stops.
Didn't anyone read my post !!!!
Not hybrid......Fuel cell....that's the answer...No fuel,only water as a byproduct( yes potable!!!) and feasable to recharge batteries. Only drawback right now is continuos motoring (24 hrs+) may draw batteries down faster than the cell can replenish them Pray for Wind, Lugeman
Not hybrid......Fuel cell....that's the answer...No fuel,only water as a byproduct( yes potable!!!) and feasable to recharge batteries. Only drawback right now is continuos motoring (24 hrs+) may draw batteries down faster than the cell can replenish them Pray for Wind, Lugeman
Why Hybrids
By disconnecting the production of power from the direct turning of the prop you can realize some interesting advantages. The generator can make my boat an all electric one which gets rid of propain. The motor can be used as a generator while under sail (in a good wind of course) to supply most of the electrical needs of the boat (sans the electric range.) If I use the diesel motor to run other things in addition to the generator I can get scuba tanks refilled, an emergency bilge pump, free hot water, air conditioning and reefer/freezer, better boat balance, more room where I want it...... There are some advantages... but at a cost of course.
By disconnecting the production of power from the direct turning of the prop you can realize some interesting advantages. The generator can make my boat an all electric one which gets rid of propain. The motor can be used as a generator while under sail (in a good wind of course) to supply most of the electrical needs of the boat (sans the electric range.) If I use the diesel motor to run other things in addition to the generator I can get scuba tanks refilled, an emergency bilge pump, free hot water, air conditioning and reefer/freezer, better boat balance, more room where I want it...... There are some advantages... but at a cost of course.
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