Hunter/Legend Keel Attachment Story

[Al - s/v Persephone]

Glenn -

I don't like to pass-on urban legends, but Jack Tyler, who seems well regarded on Seven Seas Cruising Association forums, posted the following disturbing story on SSCA, supposedly based on personal inputs from "a Swedish engineer friend":

http://ssca.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8153&sid=72687ba6b4972a47d739f6959c1d4826

Were there quality issues at the (now closed) English Legend factory that might explain this? Was this a ("medium sized") model-specific problem (subsequently addressed, I hope)?

I've never heard such "creaking" on Persephone, and with an inch-and-a-half of FRP in the stub wouldn't expect to (unless the surrounding laminate was laid-up a bit too thin).

Can you comment on the matter?

Al



Re: Faulty Keel = Manslaughter
by Jack Tyler on Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:16 am

And Graeme, let's not forget that some of these documented failures have to do with rudders as well as keels. Scary stuff...

A short story to illustrate: A Swedish engineer friend was hired by the Swedish distributor of Hunter sailboats (known by the brand name Legend in Europe) to evaluate the quality and structural adequacy of the Hunter keel structures. The distributor was being told by customers that their keels were creaking and groaning and were worried about keel integrity.

The engineer and distributor, together, visited the Legend factory in England (now closed as I understand it) and, in discussion with the factory management, asked to see the layup schedule for the keel stub to which the keels are attached. After some delay while the factory manager talked with the Hunter 'home office' in Alachua county, Florida, he declined to provide that information because it was 'proprietary'.

According to the engineer, the distributor then decided he had to sell the Swedish franchise since he couldn't knowledgeably represent the product.

At one level, we would like to think that customers would be provided with sufficient product data - especially regarding structural and therefore safety-related details - to make an informed decision. When a distributor is prevented from gaining this knowledge, it spreads this silence on safety across an entire geographical area and all its customers.

And it surely can't be constructive, in the long run, for Hunter's reputation.

BTW the first thing the engineer did when hired by the Swedish distributor was ask for a medium size Legend to be placed in the slings of a lift, suspended just off the ground, after which together they sat underneath the boat with their backs braced to prevent movement.

They then placed all 4 feet on the bottom of the boat's keel and in unison tried to move the keel simply by pushing against it with their legs. Sure enough, they were able to visibly move the keel relative to the hull. That's what led to the trip across to England.

Jack

 

[Ross]

My thoughts on boats go to the idea that when the weather deteriorates to survival conditions there souldn't be anything in the structure of the boat that will be a reason for worry. Is that keel joint going to hold? should not be a question that you ever need to ask. It is like wondering if the lugnuts on your car will hold while you are on a down hill run on a mountain road.

 

[Steve Dion]

These types of failures are not reservered for any manufacturer. I have been on this site for many years and the keel stub issue has not been much if any of an issue on US built Hunters.

All boat have a potential for similar types of failures. They are "hand made" by humans that can miss something during the construction process. Even when there are inspections, things can get hidden during the processes.

Can anyone remember an incident with a Hunter loosing its keel?

http://www.jboats.com/blog/2009/03/j-boats-responds-to-farralones-incident.html

 

[ghen]

That is ridiculous. The boats scantlings comply with very stringent ISO regulations. We send in the calculations, the drawings, all information needed to prove the boats are up to standard. I don't know the Swedish situation but so many times there are other agendas. I have never heard of one of my keels falling off. I am embarrassed to admit a story of when I drove a brand new Hunter 41 over a rock reef in Long Island Sound. I had a boat full of dealers aboard unveiling the new 41. I have a one track mind and can not do to things well at once. As I was busy showing the dealers all about the new boat while flying along at eight knots, I was not navigating well. I drove the boat on the reef and we came to a complete sudden stop. We all got banged up. We sailed the boat home and a huge divit was gouged out of the keeel. The grid slightly pulled away from the hull. We cannot or are expected to design the boat to survive running into rocks but it did. Though I hate leaking thaty story out, I think it is a pretty good testimony as to the strength of the boats. My version of the story underplayed the crash. Witness from the dealers on the boat probably would describe it a little more violent than I have. I have never been let to forget it. It was like the SouthWest Airline add, "Wanna get away?"

 

[Al - s/v Persephone]

Thanks for the response, Glenn.

When I read it I wondered how the "engineer" could think that the hull would stay immobile in a sling when the keel was pushed.

However, when stuff like this is on the 'net it should be answered, and I hoped that you could/would do so, unless there was some litigation involved between Hunter and the now-closed builder.

I know that Jack is a moderator on the SSCA forums, and appears to be respected by folk such as Evans Starzinger. Perhaps he should have thought about the question I raised above, but didn't think to question an account from a respected friend.

I've had one or two interesting incidents, but (fortunately) can't top your reef-shaving depth-sounding-by-brail. Being an NA can be an exciting career, I guess.

Fair winds,
Al

 

[Ross]

My slip neighbor has a Starwind 27 that he sailed into a submerged log at 5-6 kts. The keel stopped cold but the boat moved enough farther to crack the hull forward and aft of the keel and break furniture loose inside. There is a limit to how beefy you can make a boat but there is no limit to hard you can run aground. Sooner or later in a grounding something is likely to break. That having been said the few stories of keels leaving the boat on their own are news because it is not a common occurrence.
The annual repair of the joint between the hull and the keel on some makes and models points to some deficiency in the design or construction.

 

[Scott B]

I'm going to lock this one down. The idea of having Glenn in a Guest Forum, is to ask questions on Hunter design and sailboat design in general, not pin him down on single incidents that he has no direct knowledge nor cannot comment on this type of forum.

Feel free to post this in the Ask All sailors Forum, and continue the discussion on keel failures etc. It's important to know the underlying cause of any failure.