Hunter bashing
- Thread starter Jared1048
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And that is EXACTLY THE POINT! Enjoy what you have and consider the source of any negative comments.
We race quite seriously ( on a non production boat btw, buy we personally own a Catalina 30) but without a spin so far so we're in Cruise non spin! Last year at the skippers meeting of the Around Catalina starting at Cabrillo, the race chair actually made a comment about the cruise classes BBQing off the back and eating chips and dip along the way!
I wish I'd been at the meeting!
People. Can be jerks, enjoy what you have! Who cares what they think!
Speaking Of Hunter Bashing and Racing
Although we took a second in class on elapsed, we corrected to a third, losing second by 1 minute, 22 seconds.
However, I was in non-spinnaker cruising and some racers do not consider cruising classes real racing. Of perhaps more note then is that Hunters placed first in PHRF D & F, Day Tripper 2 and Hematoma respectively.
Although we took a second in class on elapsed, we corrected to a third, losing second by 1 minute, 22 seconds.
However, I was in non-spinnaker cruising and some racers do not consider cruising classes real racing. Of perhaps more note then is that Hunters placed first in PHRF D & F, Day Tripper 2 and Hematoma respectively.
Bashers are usually the parties that: a) lost the last race, b) the ones with the inferior boats or, c) are just jealous. They also need an audience and those can be found at the gas pump.
Ray
Ray
If anyone says Hunter boat is slow, I beg to differ. In the first 2-3 years of owning my 326, my boat has been the one others has to beat in club races. Of course as she gets older, she put on more weight (equipment, spare this and spare that.....) and became slower...elegantly slower.
Quite a number of years ago, I admired the Catalinas but didn't care for the Hunters. Didn't like the style of the reverse transom. I couldn't afford either one, so the point was moot, but I was a Hunter basher. Fast forward 25 years, found my H30 at a price I couldn't refuse and I absolutely love the boat. She is very comfortable, built like a battleship, and oddly enough very fast for a cruiser. I do very well racing against other cruisers, and a friend who has an 81 H30 beats the entire fleet, me included, every race. Physically finishes ahead of larger boats, plus gets handicap time. I'm sure the Catalinas are wonderful, but I for one have seen the light. My Cherubini Hunter is a delightful boat.
Or they just don't care for a certain boat... So keep it to yourself! A Fellow boarded our just new to us Cat 30 which we love very much, and peeked down below and off handed said " oh yeah, another Catalina 30". Why verbalized an opinion that cuts someone else's pride and joy?
Congrats Rick on a great race! Wish I could have gone!! But I watched it constantly as husband was racing too. Fly'n Bry'n is a friend and great guy.
Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder and if you are the one be holding a Hunter you likely think she is beautiful.
I do have to confess that many years back I didn't think much of Hunters. In their very early years they didn't have a great reputation on quality. Heard / saw examples where screws were used to mount hardware where it should have been bolts with backing plates. And well on styling they can be radical at times.
But before everyone gets all excited, I think they have come a long way on quality since those very early times. And styling, well you either like it or you don't. And the specific model will make a big difference here.
Every boat is a compromise with pluses and minuses.
I've owned an S2 Yacht, an O'Day, Catalina and now a Hunter.
S2 was noted for its superior glass work and quality, but some of their early designs were poor performers and seriously ugly. Looked like a power boat hull with a mast stuck on it. They hired some design talent and went on to turn out some beautiful boats. Mine was a racer and was seriously a fast boat.
O'Day was a rock solid boat but the 2 cycle OMC sail drive was treat. Had to carry MANY sets of spark plugs and we laughed that for each 5 gallons of fuel we used we needed to change the plugs
The Catalina 34 was a beautiful boat but not without some flaws. The famous Catalina smile where the keel / hull joint seam showed no matter what you did to it, their use of plywood under the keel bolts in the early models (when the plywood got wet and rotted there wasn't much holding the keel on), and the use of ports that leaked like crazy in the early models. But still, we loved her, owned her 17 years and when we sold her, we got just $1000 less than we paid for her.
And now we have a Hunter 38. I have to confess that when friends bought the same boat a year earlier my first reaction was that it was really ugly. Way too much freeboard practically requiring a ladder to get up to the deck from the dock. But after studying the design and understanding Hunters theory of large main, smaller head sale, furling main and head sail the arch, all designed to make sail management easier for short handed and older crews I began to see that this was a design that could allow us to sail well in to our elder years.
There are still things that bug me.
She still has too much freeboard (and it does take a staircase to get up to the deck when at the dock) and the windage makes it sail like a banshee on anchor, but oh the space down below!
With the sail plan, they do not sail downwind well and you are better off tacking downwind, but the smaller head and large main with the furlers make reefing a dream and we do it more frequently to get a good ride.
The arch with dodger and Bimini create amazing outdoor space and is my favorite place to nap
I've had a lot of voids in the glass / gel coat that have required fixing. Apparently glass work at Hunter isn't at the same standard as it was at S2 but then neither is the price.
I might not like a design, but I would never bash another persons boat since in their eyes I'm sure they think it is beautiful
I do have to confess that many years back I didn't think much of Hunters. In their very early years they didn't have a great reputation on quality. Heard / saw examples where screws were used to mount hardware where it should have been bolts with backing plates. And well on styling they can be radical at times.
But before everyone gets all excited, I think they have come a long way on quality since those very early times. And styling, well you either like it or you don't. And the specific model will make a big difference here.
Every boat is a compromise with pluses and minuses.
I've owned an S2 Yacht, an O'Day, Catalina and now a Hunter.
S2 was noted for its superior glass work and quality, but some of their early designs were poor performers and seriously ugly. Looked like a power boat hull with a mast stuck on it. They hired some design talent and went on to turn out some beautiful boats. Mine was a racer and was seriously a fast boat.
O'Day was a rock solid boat but the 2 cycle OMC sail drive was treat. Had to carry MANY sets of spark plugs and we laughed that for each 5 gallons of fuel we used we needed to change the plugs
The Catalina 34 was a beautiful boat but not without some flaws. The famous Catalina smile where the keel / hull joint seam showed no matter what you did to it, their use of plywood under the keel bolts in the early models (when the plywood got wet and rotted there wasn't much holding the keel on), and the use of ports that leaked like crazy in the early models. But still, we loved her, owned her 17 years and when we sold her, we got just $1000 less than we paid for her.
And now we have a Hunter 38. I have to confess that when friends bought the same boat a year earlier my first reaction was that it was really ugly. Way too much freeboard practically requiring a ladder to get up to the deck from the dock. But after studying the design and understanding Hunters theory of large main, smaller head sale, furling main and head sail the arch, all designed to make sail management easier for short handed and older crews I began to see that this was a design that could allow us to sail well in to our elder years.
There are still things that bug me.
She still has too much freeboard (and it does take a staircase to get up to the deck when at the dock) and the windage makes it sail like a banshee on anchor, but oh the space down below!
With the sail plan, they do not sail downwind well and you are better off tacking downwind, but the smaller head and large main with the furlers make reefing a dream and we do it more frequently to get a good ride.
The arch with dodger and Bimini create amazing outdoor space and is my favorite place to nap
I've had a lot of voids in the glass / gel coat that have required fixing. Apparently glass work at Hunter isn't at the same standard as it was at S2 but then neither is the price.
I might not like a design, but I would never bash another persons boat since in their eyes I'm sure they think it is beautiful
Well, I just cannot leave this one alone - stupid I might be to get involved. I seriously race and I seriously cruise, so I am familiar with both groups of people, which in this forum might be called two polar groups, but nothing like the polarity between sailors and powerboaters, I might add. When people talke about J/Boats versus Hunters, you aren't compairing apples with apples at all. Two completely different breeds indeed and cannot be compared, really, unless you are going to make some simple observations such as speed between the two brands - generally speaking and cruising comfort differences (and all the other things one thinks about when it comes to what you want in a cruising design). J/Boats, by the way, has built some pretty impressive off shore cruising designs, but they never lose sight of performance and so tend to be narrower in beam than most other cruising boats and smaller inside, although the larger boats have adequate interior cruising comfort. But, most people think of fast, one design racing boats, with stark interiors when they think of J/Boats and J/Boats has done a great deal of good toward one design racing and J/Boats also introduced sprit technology to the sport for handling asymmetrical spinnakers and so most other racing boats are adopting this same technology because the trend these days is to be able to race a boat with fewer crew and this sprit concept has contributed to that. I also might add that when it comes to performance on the race course, in terms of sails and items like sprits, it all trickles down to the cruiser. Sailmaker testing on race boats has an influence on sail improvements on cruising boats. While most cruising boats have cross cut dacron sails (the cheapest way of building a sail), there are more sophisticated sail shapes available for roller furling genoas and mainsails which actually make the cruising boat sail better. And now you can buy a deck mounted after market sprit for your cruising boat for that cruising spinnaker (asymmetrical) that is becoming more popular for the cruiser for reasons already mentioned (crew friendly). The sprit gets the sail away from the mainsail more so that it is blanketed less by it. But, I digress.
J/Boats are truly remarkable sailing vessels and if you never sailed one, then you have no idea. We are all sailors and that is a defining factor with us. We all sail and love doing so, regardless of the boat type we are on. I might also add that J/Boats always want to build a boat that a family can sail on and now that Rod Johnstone, one of the founders and original designer of J/Boats has grandchildren, he wants his grandchildren to be comfortable on those boats too. Unlike the Melges product, which is fast and fun, it requires more than a family to make it go. Apes (and young ones) are better suited as crew.
Most cruising boats (or many) have shoal keels which enable cruisers to get to places in skinny water situations like the Bahamas or Florida waters. A 7 foot J/Boat won't get into Bimini. So, the shoal keel makes sense for cruisers, but because that eliminates windward ability, the J/Boat racer is not interested. J/Boats have offered shoal keels on their go fast boats for the Florida sailor, etc., but they are not sought after in the after market.
Hunter has made many different designs over the years. They started out with a 25 footer designed by Bob Seidelmann - a trailerable, fin keel boat. Then Cherubini got in the game and now Farr is designing many of them. So, Hunter has gone through some major changes through the years all with different styling and offering different things and ammenities. Hunter has always been a boat that offered more bang for the buck, so it has been a lower price point than many other boats of similar size and there is a reason for that. Material quality is one and the amount of equipment and engine size is another. How they are massed produced is another and the list goes on. Examples are I have priced out two of the same sized boats and the more expensive boat, same size, has more winches, larger inboard, etc. and if you put in the optional engine available by Hunter to bring the HP up to the other boat's HP and install more winches, etc. then the price spread is not so far apart and the boats are more similar in comparison in some of the respects. Hunter also, in certain years, has tried to make their boats more of a no brainer product so that the beginner can get on and go sailing without having to bend his/her mind about the complexities of sailing. This suits a lot of people very well and there are a lot of manufactures doing the same thing, trying to make sailing a more user friendly sport to be enjoyed without have to have a large crew to run the boat - more family like. The trouble is, sometimes they make it so easy that when you want to make some modifications, like adding a larger genoa beyond the stock 130-135%, the deck design makes it very difficult to install a track and lead the sheet to it. Not all Hunters were designed like that and from that perspective some years will appeal to the (perhaps) more sophisticated sailor than the newby who hasn't thought about such modifications. You hear a lot of banter about the B&R rig. Well, back in the 70's there was a very successful race boat called the Lindenberg with a B&R rig (Bergstrom/Ridder). So, they are not bad rigs generally speaking. Just harder to tune. Hunter uses them because they eliminate the backstay, which for many salty cruisers, there is a problem because of the presumed safety factor. Many just feel more comfortable with a real backstay. But, as someone said above, you buy the boat for your particular need and enjoyment. You don't need a boat built for the North Sea if you are going to sail on an inland lake. There are pros and cons to water ballasted boats (the biggest con is the stability factor because water is lighter than lead and also is held high inside the hull, while a keel stands proud below the hull which increases the righting arm of the boat when heeled). But, for the guy who has the smaller vehicle that can tow the larger boat that accommodates his growing family because it is lighter, the water ballasted boat makes a ton of sense. If you are going to race in high level competition, you aren't going to buy a Hunter and expect to win, but there are many Hunters racing in all sorts of club environments who have a lot of fun and even win under handicapping. I know a guy who sails a Cherubini Hunter 27 (tall mast) in a local yacht club and he almost always wins his division each year. Depends on the fleet you sail against.
These forums are interesting and frustrating at the same time. Many of the questions are asked by people who don't know much about sailing and sometimes they get some good responses (answers) by people who have good experience and too often, in my opinion, people who don't know what they are talking about answer questions too and so goes life (in sailing and in real life). Sometimes there is one way to do things, and sometimes there are many ways to do things. Rigging a boat can be a personal endeavor and you can get as creative as your pocket book allows. When it comes to serious cruising, one has to think about what boat really will accommodate their needs. It is interesting to read a question from someone asking what is the best boat for cruising. And forum users toss out their boat as good, or some irrelevant quick response that really doesn't help at all. If you are really going to sail off into the sunset, you have to think about what that really entails. You need a boat that will hold up to extreme conditions (you always want to avoid extreme conditions and watch for your weather windows, but sometimes you get spanked), have enough fuel to get you there when the wind doesn't blow for weeks on end, or enough water supply, enough space to store your stuff, an engine adequate to motor your boat in various conditions, adequate gear to get the job done, etc., etc. and so it really doesn't just come down to Hunter versus J/Boats. You really want to buy the boat that will do the job for you and keep your family safe. And the sailor has a lot to do with it too. The very best racer in any yacht club - even perhaps on high levels of competition might not know what he/she needs to know to be a good cruiser. And, when it comes to racers, I have found that they generally know about how to sail their boats more efficiently than most cruisers (not all) and so a little racing under the belt for a cruiser might just teach them something about how to make their boat make landfall quicker too. I once got on a cruising boat with owners who were selling to new buyers. I helped get the boat ready for a test sail and when I looked at their genoa lead, I saw it was wrong and started to move it to the right (or better) postion. I got yelled at for doing so and they said that I should put it back as that is where they always kept the lead. Well, right there, I knew they didn't know anything about genoa leads and were not sailing their boat as efficiently as they could. For me and many sailors, cruising or racing, being able to sail the boat better is usually something they wish to achieve. I know lots of cruisers who have boats not noted for efficiency under sail (performance) always trying to get an adge on another boat sailing nearby. So, when you have a J-Sailor thinking about performance, they might look at Hunters in distain, which is a shame when it gets broadcasted over forums like this. But, while J/Boats is a very successful company and they really dominate the top level events in number of boats represented over other brands, I guess they get the heat when it comes to performance vs cruising boats and perhaps Hunter gets the heat on the other side. Brand recognition is huge in this sailing business and often when you buy you first boat, you often (not always) buy the same brand when you buy your second boat. That is the same with Hunter, or J/Boats, or most any brand (if they have others to offer). I would much prefer that everyone recognize that each boat is different and offers sailors a choice that fits their needs and pocket books and be happy that we all enjoy the same thing, sailing. I have to get back to work.
J/Boats are truly remarkable sailing vessels and if you never sailed one, then you have no idea. We are all sailors and that is a defining factor with us. We all sail and love doing so, regardless of the boat type we are on. I might also add that J/Boats always want to build a boat that a family can sail on and now that Rod Johnstone, one of the founders and original designer of J/Boats has grandchildren, he wants his grandchildren to be comfortable on those boats too. Unlike the Melges product, which is fast and fun, it requires more than a family to make it go. Apes (and young ones) are better suited as crew.
Most cruising boats (or many) have shoal keels which enable cruisers to get to places in skinny water situations like the Bahamas or Florida waters. A 7 foot J/Boat won't get into Bimini. So, the shoal keel makes sense for cruisers, but because that eliminates windward ability, the J/Boat racer is not interested. J/Boats have offered shoal keels on their go fast boats for the Florida sailor, etc., but they are not sought after in the after market.
Hunter has made many different designs over the years. They started out with a 25 footer designed by Bob Seidelmann - a trailerable, fin keel boat. Then Cherubini got in the game and now Farr is designing many of them. So, Hunter has gone through some major changes through the years all with different styling and offering different things and ammenities. Hunter has always been a boat that offered more bang for the buck, so it has been a lower price point than many other boats of similar size and there is a reason for that. Material quality is one and the amount of equipment and engine size is another. How they are massed produced is another and the list goes on. Examples are I have priced out two of the same sized boats and the more expensive boat, same size, has more winches, larger inboard, etc. and if you put in the optional engine available by Hunter to bring the HP up to the other boat's HP and install more winches, etc. then the price spread is not so far apart and the boats are more similar in comparison in some of the respects. Hunter also, in certain years, has tried to make their boats more of a no brainer product so that the beginner can get on and go sailing without having to bend his/her mind about the complexities of sailing. This suits a lot of people very well and there are a lot of manufactures doing the same thing, trying to make sailing a more user friendly sport to be enjoyed without have to have a large crew to run the boat - more family like. The trouble is, sometimes they make it so easy that when you want to make some modifications, like adding a larger genoa beyond the stock 130-135%, the deck design makes it very difficult to install a track and lead the sheet to it. Not all Hunters were designed like that and from that perspective some years will appeal to the (perhaps) more sophisticated sailor than the newby who hasn't thought about such modifications. You hear a lot of banter about the B&R rig. Well, back in the 70's there was a very successful race boat called the Lindenberg with a B&R rig (Bergstrom/Ridder). So, they are not bad rigs generally speaking. Just harder to tune. Hunter uses them because they eliminate the backstay, which for many salty cruisers, there is a problem because of the presumed safety factor. Many just feel more comfortable with a real backstay. But, as someone said above, you buy the boat for your particular need and enjoyment. You don't need a boat built for the North Sea if you are going to sail on an inland lake. There are pros and cons to water ballasted boats (the biggest con is the stability factor because water is lighter than lead and also is held high inside the hull, while a keel stands proud below the hull which increases the righting arm of the boat when heeled). But, for the guy who has the smaller vehicle that can tow the larger boat that accommodates his growing family because it is lighter, the water ballasted boat makes a ton of sense. If you are going to race in high level competition, you aren't going to buy a Hunter and expect to win, but there are many Hunters racing in all sorts of club environments who have a lot of fun and even win under handicapping. I know a guy who sails a Cherubini Hunter 27 (tall mast) in a local yacht club and he almost always wins his division each year. Depends on the fleet you sail against.
These forums are interesting and frustrating at the same time. Many of the questions are asked by people who don't know much about sailing and sometimes they get some good responses (answers) by people who have good experience and too often, in my opinion, people who don't know what they are talking about answer questions too and so goes life (in sailing and in real life). Sometimes there is one way to do things, and sometimes there are many ways to do things. Rigging a boat can be a personal endeavor and you can get as creative as your pocket book allows. When it comes to serious cruising, one has to think about what boat really will accommodate their needs. It is interesting to read a question from someone asking what is the best boat for cruising. And forum users toss out their boat as good, or some irrelevant quick response that really doesn't help at all. If you are really going to sail off into the sunset, you have to think about what that really entails. You need a boat that will hold up to extreme conditions (you always want to avoid extreme conditions and watch for your weather windows, but sometimes you get spanked), have enough fuel to get you there when the wind doesn't blow for weeks on end, or enough water supply, enough space to store your stuff, an engine adequate to motor your boat in various conditions, adequate gear to get the job done, etc., etc. and so it really doesn't just come down to Hunter versus J/Boats. You really want to buy the boat that will do the job for you and keep your family safe. And the sailor has a lot to do with it too. The very best racer in any yacht club - even perhaps on high levels of competition might not know what he/she needs to know to be a good cruiser. And, when it comes to racers, I have found that they generally know about how to sail their boats more efficiently than most cruisers (not all) and so a little racing under the belt for a cruiser might just teach them something about how to make their boat make landfall quicker too. I once got on a cruising boat with owners who were selling to new buyers. I helped get the boat ready for a test sail and when I looked at their genoa lead, I saw it was wrong and started to move it to the right (or better) postion. I got yelled at for doing so and they said that I should put it back as that is where they always kept the lead. Well, right there, I knew they didn't know anything about genoa leads and were not sailing their boat as efficiently as they could. For me and many sailors, cruising or racing, being able to sail the boat better is usually something they wish to achieve. I know lots of cruisers who have boats not noted for efficiency under sail (performance) always trying to get an adge on another boat sailing nearby. So, when you have a J-Sailor thinking about performance, they might look at Hunters in distain, which is a shame when it gets broadcasted over forums like this. But, while J/Boats is a very successful company and they really dominate the top level events in number of boats represented over other brands, I guess they get the heat when it comes to performance vs cruising boats and perhaps Hunter gets the heat on the other side. Brand recognition is huge in this sailing business and often when you buy you first boat, you often (not always) buy the same brand when you buy your second boat. That is the same with Hunter, or J/Boats, or most any brand (if they have others to offer). I would much prefer that everyone recognize that each boat is different and offers sailors a choice that fits their needs and pocket books and be happy that we all enjoy the same thing, sailing. I have to get back to work.
^^^^ unabashed j advertisement. Seriously, there is a style for every type of owner. No need for "high brow" posturing. The more people on the water the better. As every baby- boomer eventually retires to the boatyard in the sky, we need a lot of younger boaters (below the age of 50) to keep the sport going. I don't care what kind of boat it is, get out and sail!
Just finished a700 mile 24 day cruise in our Hunter that included being chased out into the Gulf Stream (with a North wind) by the Navy and caught in a hellish storm in the Gulf. My Hunter was dry and felt very safe and secure. Had no problem other than catching a length of line around the prop that took some undoing. This was our first real test with the boat on an extended cruise. Will have no problem going for longer trips in the future. Great boat!
Chi,
I get what you are saying. But about Bill, I can tell you there is not a 'high brow' bone in his body. He's a sailors sailor. Been a broker and a dealer forever. Dealer for J AND Hunter. I bought a boat from him like 30 years ago. Runs the best boat service yard in the Twin Cities. I saw him at the sailors bar last week when we were up prepping our 36.7 and he looked the same; like he just stepped off a trans-Atlantic crossing. He's the real deal, no crap and straight up words.
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