I have a question for Hunter owners. My husband and I are trying to decide whether to buy the Hunter 356 or the Beneteau 361. Both dealers will match each others price so the cost is not a problem. The problem is we can't decide with boat to buy. I really love the Hunter 356 but my Husband is a little concerned about the BandR rig. We presently own a 1980 CandC 34 and before that my Husband owned a J24. So even thought crusing is the many reason for buying a new boat, he still wants great performance. Any response will be greatly appreciated.
- Status
What is he concerned about?
Jodi: What is he concerned about. The original B&R rigs have been around since 1983 (on Hunters). Sailors where concerned about them then too. Then the where changed so they do not have a back stay and we hear the same thing. There are thousands of these rigs that have been sailed all over the oceans (and they are still standing). This is innovation. In years to come the rest of them will be doing the same thing, they are usually just 10 or 15 years behind.
Jodi: What is he concerned about. The original B&R rigs have been around since 1983 (on Hunters). Sailors where concerned about them then too. Then the where changed so they do not have a back stay and we hear the same thing. There are thousands of these rigs that have been sailed all over the oceans (and they are still standing). This is innovation. In years to come the rest of them will be doing the same thing, they are usually just 10 or 15 years behind.
Good rig
My wife and I bought a 356 last summer. For 21 years, we'd owned a Tartan 27 yawl, about as traditional as they come, with a very sturdy traditional rig. I've had absolutely no qualms about the B&R, especially given the way Hunter has integrated the cockpit arch into the design. I have been pleased and surprised with the performance. The boat moves really well, especially once I learned to sail it more upright and "looser." As one example, we made a 150 mi over-and-back transit on Lake Michigan in 23 hours, including some motor sailing, but in basically moderate winds, and in great comfort, I might add. We also looked at Beneteau, but thought it was not as comfortable. Good luck with your decision.
My wife and I bought a 356 last summer. For 21 years, we'd owned a Tartan 27 yawl, about as traditional as they come, with a very sturdy traditional rig. I've had absolutely no qualms about the B&R, especially given the way Hunter has integrated the cockpit arch into the design. I have been pleased and surprised with the performance. The boat moves really well, especially once I learned to sail it more upright and "looser." As one example, we made a 150 mi over-and-back transit on Lake Michigan in 23 hours, including some motor sailing, but in basically moderate winds, and in great comfort, I might add. We also looked at Beneteau, but thought it was not as comfortable. Good luck with your decision.
Concern about the B&R rig
The concern is not the rig falling down, its how do I dump sail in a down wind situation, or a broad reach. Also how do you tune the rig?
The concern is not the rig falling down, its how do I dump sail in a down wind situation, or a broad reach. Also how do you tune the rig?
B&R
I understand the advantage of the B & R no backstay rig in that you get a main with a very large roach for good on the wind performance. What are the advantages (if any) of the above mentioned rig if you compare in mast furling? The traditional backstay rig would have the advantage of better down wind performance than the B & R no backstay rig and in mast furling eliminates the large roach advantage.
I understand the advantage of the B & R no backstay rig in that you get a main with a very large roach for good on the wind performance. What are the advantages (if any) of the above mentioned rig if you compare in mast furling? The traditional backstay rig would have the advantage of better down wind performance than the B & R no backstay rig and in mast furling eliminates the large roach advantage.
Faster
In my limited experience consisting of informally attempting to catch and pass any boat in the area my 376 was faster than any Beneteau I ran across. I did not participate in organized racing except for one Newport to Ensenada and took third place in our class. A friend raced a 376 extensively and was more than competitive including an Ensenada Trophy. I suspect the 356 will do quite well.
In my limited experience consisting of informally attempting to catch and pass any boat in the area my 376 was faster than any Beneteau I ran across. I did not participate in organized racing except for one Newport to Ensenada and took third place in our class. A friend raced a 376 extensively and was more than competitive including an Ensenada Trophy. I suspect the 356 will do quite well.
Dumping Sail Turn Into the Wind
On a larger boat in the 35 to 36 foot range it becomes more difficult to man-handle things like sails because there can be so much loading on them. With the stock plastic sail slugs in a brisk wind you just about have to point the boat into the wind to bring the sail down. Once the main halyard is loosened the sail will come down a foot or so even in a brisk wind. While still trying to go down wind you pretty much have to go to the mast and pull on the luff but with all the friction of the slugs and the sail, yes, rubbing on the spreaders because the boom is out, it will be really difficult. By brisk wind I'm thinking of 20+ kts. On a smaller boat, like the J-24 you mentioned, man-handling the sail would be much easier. There is less sail area and less load and because the luff is shorter, less friction from the slugs. With the larger boat you wouldn't necessarily have to be straight into the seas but steer off enough so the load is reduced on the sail. Maybe this could be as much as 60 degrees with the main sheet all the way out. As for the rig coming down, I'd always be concerned for any rig, B&R or something else. With only one forestay probably the most important area to check is the swage near the roller furler. This is where the salt water can get into the wire forestay and into the sweaging (sp?) and cause problems - but this is true with any boat. Surprisingly though, I've never seen this posted as a problem. Other causes of forestay failure have been the furler hanging up one way or another and twisting the forestay (you can easily prevent this by not forcing it) or loose rigging and resultant fatigue failure. The power is in the roach - look at the Americas cup boats and multi-hull rigs. Big roach = power = speed under sail = FUN!
On a larger boat in the 35 to 36 foot range it becomes more difficult to man-handle things like sails because there can be so much loading on them. With the stock plastic sail slugs in a brisk wind you just about have to point the boat into the wind to bring the sail down. Once the main halyard is loosened the sail will come down a foot or so even in a brisk wind. While still trying to go down wind you pretty much have to go to the mast and pull on the luff but with all the friction of the slugs and the sail, yes, rubbing on the spreaders because the boom is out, it will be really difficult. By brisk wind I'm thinking of 20+ kts. On a smaller boat, like the J-24 you mentioned, man-handling the sail would be much easier. There is less sail area and less load and because the luff is shorter, less friction from the slugs. With the larger boat you wouldn't necessarily have to be straight into the seas but steer off enough so the load is reduced on the sail. Maybe this could be as much as 60 degrees with the main sheet all the way out. As for the rig coming down, I'd always be concerned for any rig, B&R or something else. With only one forestay probably the most important area to check is the swage near the roller furler. This is where the salt water can get into the wire forestay and into the sweaging (sp?) and cause problems - but this is true with any boat. Surprisingly though, I've never seen this posted as a problem. Other causes of forestay failure have been the furler hanging up one way or another and twisting the forestay (you can easily prevent this by not forcing it) or loose rigging and resultant fatigue failure. The power is in the roach - look at the Americas cup boats and multi-hull rigs. Big roach = power = speed under sail = FUN!
never set or strike your main going downwind
You never want to raise and lower your main going downwind. One of the other responses to your question mentioned this as something to consider when he was talking about man handleing sails. In emergency situations, this may be necessary and possible in light winds, but that guy was only right about one thing: It would not be easy in high winds, but it is also horrible to do to the sail.
You never want to raise and lower your main going downwind. One of the other responses to your question mentioned this as something to consider when he was talking about man handleing sails. In emergency situations, this may be necessary and possible in light winds, but that guy was only right about one thing: It would not be easy in high winds, but it is also horrible to do to the sail.
not bringing down the sail
I guess when I said dumping sail I should have said spilling . What I mean is if I am going down wind with a chute on a broad reach or dead down , and I get into a broach situation how do dump main .
I guess when I said dumping sail I should have said spilling . What I mean is if I am going down wind with a chute on a broad reach or dead down , and I get into a broach situation how do dump main .
Hunter vs. Beneteau
1. With a purchase of a Hunter, all of the $$ stays in the United States, with a Beneteau, how much goes to France? 2. On my Hunter 340 I was able to add two 100 watt solar panels on top of the arch. (A great place.) 3. The arch adds a feeling of security in the cockpit with more to grab a hold of. 4. With the large main sail, the jib is smaller and very easy to handle. 5. I did what most would not, and put a 90% jib on with a self-tacking boom, and still have that large main.
1. With a purchase of a Hunter, all of the $$ stays in the United States, with a Beneteau, how much goes to France? 2. On my Hunter 340 I was able to add two 100 watt solar panels on top of the arch. (A great place.) 3. The arch adds a feeling of security in the cockpit with more to grab a hold of. 4. With the large main sail, the jib is smaller and very easy to handle. 5. I did what most would not, and put a 90% jib on with a self-tacking boom, and still have that large main.
can you use a spinnaker?
I heard from somewhere ( prob beneteau : ) ) that you were not suposed to use a spinnaker with a with these B&R rigs.
I heard from somewhere ( prob beneteau : ) ) that you were not suposed to use a spinnaker with a with these B&R rigs.
Hunter vs beneteau
We went thru the same questions on H vs B when we upgraded from our 29.5-went with the 356! we, too, generally find we sail away from the beneteaus in the area, once we learned to make her go. In heavy winds she's easy to depower with the vang or traveller (downwind or upwind) , and you can get inmast furling and the large roach by using something like the Doyle swingbatten. Yes, you can fly a chute, they use the more modern asymetrical-easier to handle, broader effective range, and a snap to set/douse with a sock. Our Chute adds 1058 sq ft of area, it's like kicking in an afterburner. Finally, the arch improves your control of the main, besides being a great place to hang stuff! (and people) Chuck Wayne H356 WWW.Escape
We went thru the same questions on H vs B when we upgraded from our 29.5-went with the 356! we, too, generally find we sail away from the beneteaus in the area, once we learned to make her go. In heavy winds she's easy to depower with the vang or traveller (downwind or upwind) , and you can get inmast furling and the large roach by using something like the Doyle swingbatten. Yes, you can fly a chute, they use the more modern asymetrical-easier to handle, broader effective range, and a snap to set/douse with a sock. Our Chute adds 1058 sq ft of area, it's like kicking in an afterburner. Finally, the arch improves your control of the main, besides being a great place to hang stuff! (and people) Chuck Wayne H356 WWW.Escape
You can use a spinnaker
Hunter sells spinnaker gear with many of the boats; thousands of spinnakers are flying on B&R rigs. That sounds like salesman's story to me.
Hunter sells spinnaker gear with many of the boats; thousands of spinnakers are flying on B&R rigs. That sounds like salesman's story to me.
Preferred Spinaker on a 356?
Chuck and others, could you please provide info on your preferred asymmetrical spinaker and gear that you would recommend? Thanks
Chuck and others, could you please provide info on your preferred asymmetrical spinaker and gear that you would recommend? Thanks
Chuck...how did you get your 356 'to go'?
Around here the Beneautteau's seem faster than our Hunter 356, so I must be doing SOMETHING wrong. How do you ensure peak performance? I have in mast furling so obviously that doesn't help. Some days I'm able to sustain 7.45 knots in 13-15 knot winds but I can't seem to get past 4 0r 5 once the wind drops to 10 knots or so. Suggestions for the 356?
Around here the Beneautteau's seem faster than our Hunter 356, so I must be doing SOMETHING wrong. How do you ensure peak performance? I have in mast furling so obviously that doesn't help. Some days I'm able to sustain 7.45 knots in 13-15 knot winds but I can't seem to get past 4 0r 5 once the wind drops to 10 knots or so. Suggestions for the 356?
Hi Deac, I would suggest you hop over ...
to the Guest Forum and pose the question. It has sail experts who can help you pick the right spin for your boat. Terry
to the Guest Forum and pose the question. It has sail experts who can help you pick the right spin for your boat. Terry
AirForce Spinnaker
I recommend AirForce asymmetrical spinnaker with dousing sock - you can design your own colors and the staff are great to work with!
I recommend AirForce asymmetrical spinnaker with dousing sock - you can design your own colors and the staff are great to work with!
making a 356 "go"
Hi Deac, We have in mast furling too-more later. I found the most important things were paying attention to sail shape and trim, and keeping her upright and moving-the hull shape seems to perform best with no more than 10-15 degrees of heel, and the shoal keel depends on hydrodynamics (read water flow) to work-you need to keep her moving, even if you need to foot a little. We use the traveller, vang, halyard and outhaul to optimize the main, but I miss that large roach! We fly a Doyle APC with an ATN sock, with dual sheets. We replaced the standard short guy with a long guy that goes to a turning block on the anchor roller, then down the port side thru a set of furling blocks back to the cockpit. That way, we can control the chute luff tension for better control. After a year of trying to get the standard UK sails to work reasonably, we ordered a Doyle swingbatten main-we're still on the hard, but the new sail looks great and adds back the roach-sail area is increased about 30%, and the battens will kill the shaking leech we've been fighting! While Doyle was on board measuring, we discovered that Hunter and UK had short-changed us by about a foot of hoist on the jib! We ordered a new jib too, and not only added in the hoist but increased the overlap to 120%-as far as you can go with the current sheet tracks and the 356 stays. These changes should substantially improve her light air performance without compromising easy reefing. Doyle (Marblehead) really went the extra mile to solve my issues with the stock rig, and spent a lot of time learning my needs and thoughts and engineering a fairly complicated sail (the jib has a hollow leech with a complex shape to clear the stays). I would recommend them without hesitation. (Rationalize- the UK sails seem to die after about 2 years - I'll sail the Doyles, and when/if I sell her I have a new set of UKs in storage for the new owner.
Hi Deac, We have in mast furling too-more later. I found the most important things were paying attention to sail shape and trim, and keeping her upright and moving-the hull shape seems to perform best with no more than 10-15 degrees of heel, and the shoal keel depends on hydrodynamics (read water flow) to work-you need to keep her moving, even if you need to foot a little. We use the traveller, vang, halyard and outhaul to optimize the main, but I miss that large roach! We fly a Doyle APC with an ATN sock, with dual sheets. We replaced the standard short guy with a long guy that goes to a turning block on the anchor roller, then down the port side thru a set of furling blocks back to the cockpit. That way, we can control the chute luff tension for better control. After a year of trying to get the standard UK sails to work reasonably, we ordered a Doyle swingbatten main-we're still on the hard, but the new sail looks great and adds back the roach-sail area is increased about 30%, and the battens will kill the shaking leech we've been fighting! While Doyle was on board measuring, we discovered that Hunter and UK had short-changed us by about a foot of hoist on the jib! We ordered a new jib too, and not only added in the hoist but increased the overlap to 120%-as far as you can go with the current sheet tracks and the 356 stays. These changes should substantially improve her light air performance without compromising easy reefing. Doyle (Marblehead) really went the extra mile to solve my issues with the stock rig, and spent a lot of time learning my needs and thoughts and engineering a fairly complicated sail (the jib has a hollow leech with a complex shape to clear the stays). I would recommend them without hesitation. (Rationalize- the UK sails seem to die after about 2 years - I'll sail the Doyles, and when/if I sell her I have a new set of UKs in storage for the new owner.
356 v. 361
One reason the 356 sails so well is that it is the first boat that Glenn Henderson did for Hunter. For non-racers, Henderson is the designer of the Henderson, a flat out go-fast 30' speedster. Henderson did the underwater design work on the 356.
One reason the 356 sails so well is that it is the first boat that Glenn Henderson did for Hunter. For non-racers, Henderson is the designer of the Henderson, a flat out go-fast 30' speedster. Henderson did the underwater design work on the 356.
- Status