John Cherubini, you recently mentioned your family's boat, Antigone as being a Raider. Searching the site archives with "raider" brings up quite a few postings, several by Tom M that indicate something of the connection between the Raider and the H 33. Will you please comment on this connection and any other information you have on the design history of the H 33? Thanks, Terry (Bayhorse, 79 H 33)
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Raider
There are a few Raider 33's on Barnegat Bay that I know of. I've seen one out of the water and the hull is subtlely different from our Hunters. They have fast looking lines, are very good looking boats and in my experience out on the bay are just a tiny little bit faster than our 33's. (I KNOW I could have caught him if my sails were newer and my bottom smother!)
There are a few Raider 33's on Barnegat Bay that I know of. I've seen one out of the water and the hull is subtlely different from our Hunters. They have fast looking lines, are very good looking boats and in my experience out on the bay are just a tiny little bit faster than our 33's. (I KNOW I could have caught him if my sails were newer and my bottom smother!)
Antigone and the Raiders
Sam and Terry, thanks for a really COOL question! I've been sort of waiting for this one. Raider Yacht was founded in about 1976-77 by my uncle Joe and his two sons Peter and Brian. They are completely unaffiliated with Hunter or Cherubini Boat (except that through my dad's influence vendors like Lewmar, Kenyon, and Schaeffer all gave the same-tier parts discounts to all three!). There is a very good write-up on Raider in Ferenc Maté's book 'Best Boats to Build or Buy' (Norton, 1980-ish). The name came from Peter and Brian's favourite football team. The company colours were gold, silver, and black and the logo was a Jolly Roger. The boats were gorgeous, built by the family's most infamous neatniks– the joinery inside was superb. It was because of the incredible attention to detail that not many were made and they did not sell fast or easily. Their sailing performance is entirely another story! I have NO doubt that between equally stock Hunter 33s and Raider 33s the Raider would outrun the Hunter on every point of sail. It must be considered that the Hunter 33 is no slouch– it was one of my dad's favourites and there are still members of the family who would clamour after one if it came up for sale. But the Raider was just blinding. There is a picture in Maté's book of one flying a radial spinnaker on a beam reach heeled over to the rail doing about 9 knots in weather that would reef lesser boats into rags. I would like to think that the Raider was my dad's idea of a Hunter 33 done one better. Close comparison to the two boats' plans will ultimately confirm this. But what is certain is that it was a boat drawn by him with absolutely NO restraints by marketing or accounting. The Raider was only 27 ft on the water, which at least one dealer considered a drawback because it limited interior room. The bow was steeply raked, and out of the mould it was, as Maté reported, as sharp as a razorblade– probably a 1/16-inch radius. (Peter is/was probably one of the best fibreglass mould workers in the country. That's worth about 8 bucks an hour.) But we all know that waterline length has a direct correspondent in displacement. The Raider's lines are so typical of my dad– incredibly fine underwater, 10,400 lbs fully dressed under 455 ft of sail. As with so many of them this incredible lightness of being resulted in dizzying heel angle, but, also typically, once heeled that was the end of it. Antigone (1978) was the ultimate physical incarnation of the Raider 33 (there are others in the plans which will further blow you away). The custom layout contributed to a full 1000 lbs weight savings. The engine was set directly over the aft end of the keel for weight distribution. There was no vee berth, only a toilet and sail room. The interior was like the Hunter 25 but with two quarter berths. Originally it had a tiller but we put in an Edson pedestal with a 40-inch wheel geared so tightly that lock-to-lock was like 2-1/2 turns– it steered like a Formula One car. The Kevlar mainsheet went through 6:1 Haarken ball-bearing blocks, one end cleating on the traveller car and the other on the cabintop at the winch. The keel on Antigone was the 6-ft deep version, a slightly tapered quadrilateral, and the rudder had a small skeg but later a full spade rudder was developed. Four days before race season in 1979 we added a fibreglass 'cuff' on the aft edge of the keel making it more vertical. The result was a little more stiffness and I guess a tighter point to windward (less 'burble' aft of the keel). In a race you sat with the coaming under your knees and played the mainsheet like you were racing a 470. Everyone else held on for dear life. It was like racing a Jag XK-120 on skinny period tyres in the rain without seat belts. We piled up quite a collection of silver-plate 'hardware' with that boat and lined the beams in the rec room with first-to-finish and first-in-class pennants. We rarely came home with worse than third. Antigone and several other Raiders raced in the Northeast were responsible for lowering the PHRF on the type from the 170s in 1977 to about 154 in 1978 to 145 in 1979. I don't know of anyone who raced one who ever complained about it. They all knew they had got a winner and you don't complain about temperament in a winning race horse. The 33-ft size was a favourite of my dad's and I have been recently talking to my cousin Mike (CherubiniModels.com) about making the Raider's forerunner, a 33-ft double-chine plywood daggerboard day racer, what we called the River Rat, available as a 1" = 1 ft scale sailing model. More on that as it develops. J Cherubini II Cherubini Art & Nautical Design Org. JComet@aol.com
Sam and Terry, thanks for a really COOL question! I've been sort of waiting for this one. Raider Yacht was founded in about 1976-77 by my uncle Joe and his two sons Peter and Brian. They are completely unaffiliated with Hunter or Cherubini Boat (except that through my dad's influence vendors like Lewmar, Kenyon, and Schaeffer all gave the same-tier parts discounts to all three!). There is a very good write-up on Raider in Ferenc Maté's book 'Best Boats to Build or Buy' (Norton, 1980-ish). The name came from Peter and Brian's favourite football team. The company colours were gold, silver, and black and the logo was a Jolly Roger. The boats were gorgeous, built by the family's most infamous neatniks– the joinery inside was superb. It was because of the incredible attention to detail that not many were made and they did not sell fast or easily. Their sailing performance is entirely another story! I have NO doubt that between equally stock Hunter 33s and Raider 33s the Raider would outrun the Hunter on every point of sail. It must be considered that the Hunter 33 is no slouch– it was one of my dad's favourites and there are still members of the family who would clamour after one if it came up for sale. But the Raider was just blinding. There is a picture in Maté's book of one flying a radial spinnaker on a beam reach heeled over to the rail doing about 9 knots in weather that would reef lesser boats into rags. I would like to think that the Raider was my dad's idea of a Hunter 33 done one better. Close comparison to the two boats' plans will ultimately confirm this. But what is certain is that it was a boat drawn by him with absolutely NO restraints by marketing or accounting. The Raider was only 27 ft on the water, which at least one dealer considered a drawback because it limited interior room. The bow was steeply raked, and out of the mould it was, as Maté reported, as sharp as a razorblade– probably a 1/16-inch radius. (Peter is/was probably one of the best fibreglass mould workers in the country. That's worth about 8 bucks an hour.) But we all know that waterline length has a direct correspondent in displacement. The Raider's lines are so typical of my dad– incredibly fine underwater, 10,400 lbs fully dressed under 455 ft of sail. As with so many of them this incredible lightness of being resulted in dizzying heel angle, but, also typically, once heeled that was the end of it. Antigone (1978) was the ultimate physical incarnation of the Raider 33 (there are others in the plans which will further blow you away). The custom layout contributed to a full 1000 lbs weight savings. The engine was set directly over the aft end of the keel for weight distribution. There was no vee berth, only a toilet and sail room. The interior was like the Hunter 25 but with two quarter berths. Originally it had a tiller but we put in an Edson pedestal with a 40-inch wheel geared so tightly that lock-to-lock was like 2-1/2 turns– it steered like a Formula One car. The Kevlar mainsheet went through 6:1 Haarken ball-bearing blocks, one end cleating on the traveller car and the other on the cabintop at the winch. The keel on Antigone was the 6-ft deep version, a slightly tapered quadrilateral, and the rudder had a small skeg but later a full spade rudder was developed. Four days before race season in 1979 we added a fibreglass 'cuff' on the aft edge of the keel making it more vertical. The result was a little more stiffness and I guess a tighter point to windward (less 'burble' aft of the keel). In a race you sat with the coaming under your knees and played the mainsheet like you were racing a 470. Everyone else held on for dear life. It was like racing a Jag XK-120 on skinny period tyres in the rain without seat belts. We piled up quite a collection of silver-plate 'hardware' with that boat and lined the beams in the rec room with first-to-finish and first-in-class pennants. We rarely came home with worse than third. Antigone and several other Raiders raced in the Northeast were responsible for lowering the PHRF on the type from the 170s in 1977 to about 154 in 1978 to 145 in 1979. I don't know of anyone who raced one who ever complained about it. They all knew they had got a winner and you don't complain about temperament in a winning race horse. The 33-ft size was a favourite of my dad's and I have been recently talking to my cousin Mike (CherubiniModels.com) about making the Raider's forerunner, a 33-ft double-chine plywood daggerboard day racer, what we called the River Rat, available as a 1" = 1 ft scale sailing model. More on that as it develops. J Cherubini II Cherubini Art & Nautical Design Org. JComet@aol.com
Any pictures?
Either on another web-site or available to put in the HOW "Photo Forum"? Would love to seem some photos of the Raider 33.
Either on another web-site or available to put in the HOW "Photo Forum"? Would love to seem some photos of the Raider 33.
Raider 33 Owner
I owned and sailed the 1981 Raider 33 "Harmony" on Barnegat Bay for 11 years before buying my current Legend 35.5 back in June, 99. I hated to sell the boat! It was an incredible sailing vessel. I agree with Mr. Cherubini; no way would you have been able to catch or even keep up with it--all things being equal. It was fast, fun, responsive and yet tracked beautifully. It was able to outsail boats 3 and 4 feet longer. Mine was a shoal draft version and you could leave the helm to go below without losing tracking. The boat actually picked up speed as it heeled! It had tumblehome in the hull and long overhangs that added waterline when heeled. It was narrow by todays standards with low freeboard, radically raked & narrow transom, and a powerfull high aspect rig. Mine was equipped with a 150 Genoa. I could sail that boat with Genny only and still outperform many others. When approaching "home" I would often go forward while sailing and drop and stow the main while still under the 150 without locking the helm: the boat would continue to track without losing appreciable speed. I have many pictures of my boat as well as another Barnegat Bay Raider--"Andromeda". Andromeda is actively being raced by Sam Joiner and his wife. They do exceptionally well against the newer designs. I don't know if there were more then 20 Raiders made and the molds were eventually sold to someone in Florida. You don't want a Florida built Raider (if, in fact, any were built). Many Raiders were sold in various stages of completion. Mine was factory finished. The interior was absolutely georgous, especially after I varnished it. The boat (still named HARMONY I believe) sails out the Bohemia River if I remember correctly. The only reason we sold that boat was because upon retirement we wanted something a little more comfortable for cruising. PS
I owned and sailed the 1981 Raider 33 "Harmony" on Barnegat Bay for 11 years before buying my current Legend 35.5 back in June, 99. I hated to sell the boat! It was an incredible sailing vessel. I agree with Mr. Cherubini; no way would you have been able to catch or even keep up with it--all things being equal. It was fast, fun, responsive and yet tracked beautifully. It was able to outsail boats 3 and 4 feet longer. Mine was a shoal draft version and you could leave the helm to go below without losing tracking. The boat actually picked up speed as it heeled! It had tumblehome in the hull and long overhangs that added waterline when heeled. It was narrow by todays standards with low freeboard, radically raked & narrow transom, and a powerfull high aspect rig. Mine was equipped with a 150 Genoa. I could sail that boat with Genny only and still outperform many others. When approaching "home" I would often go forward while sailing and drop and stow the main while still under the 150 without locking the helm: the boat would continue to track without losing appreciable speed. I have many pictures of my boat as well as another Barnegat Bay Raider--"Andromeda". Andromeda is actively being raced by Sam Joiner and his wife. They do exceptionally well against the newer designs. I don't know if there were more then 20 Raiders made and the molds were eventually sold to someone in Florida. You don't want a Florida built Raider (if, in fact, any were built). Many Raiders were sold in various stages of completion. Mine was factory finished. The interior was absolutely georgous, especially after I varnished it. The boat (still named HARMONY I believe) sails out the Bohemia River if I remember correctly. The only reason we sold that boat was because upon retirement we wanted something a little more comfortable for cruising. PS
Raider production.
To my knowledge there were more like 30 Raider boats built in NJ from about 1977 till 1983 when I helped move and close the shop. I can find out by asking Peter but I know those three guys could build about one boat a month. On some days they put in a whole six hours of work. JC
To my knowledge there were more like 30 Raider boats built in NJ from about 1977 till 1983 when I helped move and close the shop. I can find out by asking Peter but I know those three guys could build about one boat a month. On some days they put in a whole six hours of work. JC
Raider production
Hi John, Thanks for the response. I did not realize that there were that many Raiders made. Not bad I guess considering 6 or less hours of daily work LOL
I did find your discussion in the archives about raider production and history. As you can probably tell I really enjoyed sailing the boat. PS
Hi John, Thanks for the response. I did not realize that there were that many Raiders made. Not bad I guess considering 6 or less hours of daily work LOL
I did find your discussion in the archives about raider production and history. As you can probably tell I really enjoyed sailing the boat. PSA Raider 33 on six hours a day
It must be understood that when I say Joe and his sons worked about six hours a day on Raider production, that shouldn't connote that they were lazy. Quite the opposite! They were so bloody organised that they didn't need more time than that– and they rarely worked weekends. Every day a set of tasks was assigned, started and finished. If you've just applied glue or resin there isn't much to do but wait for it to dry. All wait-for-it-to-dry jobs were done immediately after lunch and everyone went home as soon as the tools were cleaned up. In his book, Ferenc Maté said you coud eat off the floor of the shop. In fact we often sat right on the concrete for subs and beer on lunch hour! –it was that casual, and that clean (and it really was an hour). Some days I really miss those days. JC
It must be understood that when I say Joe and his sons worked about six hours a day on Raider production, that shouldn't connote that they were lazy. Quite the opposite! They were so bloody organised that they didn't need more time than that– and they rarely worked weekends. Every day a set of tasks was assigned, started and finished. If you've just applied glue or resin there isn't much to do but wait for it to dry. All wait-for-it-to-dry jobs were done immediately after lunch and everyone went home as soon as the tools were cleaned up. In his book, Ferenc Maté said you coud eat off the floor of the shop. In fact we often sat right on the concrete for subs and beer on lunch hour! –it was that casual, and that clean (and it really was an hour). Some days I really miss those days. JC
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