Hunter 33 - multiple questions

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Sam Lust

I have a 1983 shoal draft Hunter 33, probably the last one built. The rudder post is 1 1/2" solid stainless and the rudder itself based on feel, sound and weight (it weighs a ton) appears to be solid. The rudder draws the same depth as the keel. It has no funny bulges and only minor cracking at the top where the shaft goes into the glasswork itself. What are the chances the rudder was made by Foss Foam? The area I sail in, Barnegat Bay, New Jersey, is at best, shallow and we tend to bump the bottom frequently, at the expense of the rudder. When It bends the aft tip at the top rubs against the fin extension, making steering a grinding experience. To cure this without hauling the boat I back the boat down against a sandy beach that drops down sharply. A shot or two and it's straight again, so far with no damage to the glass. Any thoughts or experience on how much of this the shaft is going to take? My feeling after owning the boat for 3 years is that the rudder is too small. Response is slow and soft under both sail and power. I tried a temporary, glued extension last season and it made a big difference in rudder response. (Very exciting when it broke free under power!) As the rudder is already as deep as it can reasonably go I want to increase it's surface area by extending it fore and aft. About 1/4' fore and about 1" aft. The question is on method. The way I'm figuring on doing it is: Run SS #8 screws into the aft edge leaving about 3/4" exposed without heads to provide support. Fill in between with 3M vinyl ester putty as core, and covering with several layers of glass and epoxy. As yet I'm undecided as to what type of glass. The forward edge would be just a bit of putty covered with glass and epoxy. All of this faired with 3M vinyl ester putty, then Interlux barrier coated. Does this sound like a viable method, and/or could you suggest a better way? When the time comes for replacement, how are you guys at doing semi custom? I'm figuring on using a shape from another boat on a duplicate of the original shaft. How's that for rambling? Thanks for your help.
 
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Tim Schaaf

SMALL RUDDER!

Sam, I was interested to read your opinion of the size of our rudders...I tend to agree. I used to teach sailing on an Olson 911 which had a huge rudder...what a difference. But I wonder if you have considered the sailing aspects of increasing the rudder size, as well as the technical issues. The rudder is an important factor in the boat's lateral resistance and therefore affects the "center of lateral resistance". In this regard, it behaves like a second keel. I would think that enlarging it would shift this center aft, maybe dramatically, causing lee helm, and maybe a lot of it. I am sure it will greatly affect the sailing balance of the boat. What effect did your experiment have? Maybe Mr. Cherubini would have a comment on this. I am also wondering whether your shaft-straightening technique bends the shaft or shifts the entire assembly. The shaft goes through a stainless tube. That is it. And the tube is not that well braced in all the boats. As a result of a really bad grounding (major operator error!) in heavy conditions in SF Bay, I actually knocked mine loose! You should see how it is now braced! The boat will break into little pieces before that rudder budges! By the way, the rudder, which really got slammed, and the shaft came through unscathed. The shaft didn't bend a bit, and we were slamming hard enough to really spin the wheel. That was about seventeen years ago, and the rudder is still fine.
 
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Sam Lust

Response to Tim

Tim; In the extended rudder experiment, which lasted about 3/4 of last season until the glued-on piece, a plastic build-up glued held in place with silicone caulk broke off. There was no detrimental affect on sailing that I could feel. Certainly nothing even approaching lee helm (I should be so lucky!) If anything it provided somewhat better balance and response to the wheel. Lee helm I can deal with through rigging adjustment and mast rake. My 33 has always shown strong weather helm since I've had it, possibly made worse by bagged out sails. The worn sails problem is being cured by a new set of sails (Quantum Quest). My concern on the weather helm front is that when close hauled at between 15 and 20 degrees of heel (not unreasonable) rudder response is almost nonexistent. Also, when running down waves she tends to broach before I think she should, and to maintain any semblance of course we have to steer wildly back and forth. During these maneuvers I can feel the rudder stalling and having little effect. I want a better margin of safety without having to ease the main sheet or traveler to be able to steer off the wind, and when running down waves, and the aft extension to the rudder seems to be the way. My guess has been that Cherubini had to select a compromise on the rudder and opted for less resistance and drag for better speed by going with a smaller foil, with the sailor left to steer with the sheets and traveler. I'd be interested in learning how you braced the rudder post tube in "V" section of the stern. Mine seems to be held in place with some sort of resin, putty or some such. No glass cloth that I've been able to see unless it's under the poured portion and not visible. It appears whatever the material is was poured in around the tube and against a plywood dam just forward and allowed to cure. There is about 4" sticking up which is unsupported which easily could be. I've often thought of pouring in more resin to add to the strength, but there have always been more pressing projects at the top of the list. Unfortunately, when there is a crew of people in the cockpit the stern sits down lower to the point that the tip of the rudder is probably well below the keel. To get back and forth to the bay we have to traverse quite a bit of distance which has been dug in, and not all of it was done all that well. There are old stumps, rocks and possibly discarded vehicles to contend with. One time we hit something very solid at about 1 1/2 to 2 knots dead on with the keel. It stopped the boat dead instantly. My wife had been sitting at the top of the companionway facing aft with her feet on the ladder. When the boat stopped she disappeared below instantly. Luckily she didn't break any of the cabinetry below that broke her fall. It only took a year for her foot to heal. It was while trying to avoid this immovable lump that I discovered another one just opposite it and bent the rudder again. I'm running out of plastic jugs to mark these things. You Guys in San Francisco bay don't know how good you have it. You can see 50 to 100 feet of water with no trouble. I've seen over 100 feet under the Golden Gate myself. In order for me to see 100 feet I have to sail about 10 miles offshore. On Barnegat bay I'm accustomed to sailing with 2 feet of water below the keel!
 
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Tim Schaaf

Reply to Sam

Hi Sam, did you know that the average depth of SF Bay is 4-5 feet?!? Of course, that includes lots of spots you wouldn't think of going to, but it is a fact. However, the sailing is pretty good. Actually, I now live and work in Cabo, and have been sailing the Sea of Cortez. MUCH prettier! It is interesting to contrast the performance of your shoal keel with my deep keel. I would agree that the boat can round up easily...although less so with her current sails (full batten, loose footed main). However, the most important thing I found in SF was to reef really early. In our frequently choppy 20 to 25 knot afternoons, Casual Water would just fly, and under excellent control, with two reefs and seven rolls in the foller furling 110. This worked great in off-shore blows as well. Much less heel and much drier. By the way, I installed some very nice washboards from the exterior sides of the cockpit coamings out to the toerails, slightly aft of the winches, and cut openings in the toerails. The result was to route the torrents of water, present on the side-decks, overboard. This modification cured the wet feet and damp butt problems previously experienced. I have had about a bucket of water, total, in the cockpit in the fifteen years since! But, back to the rudder! It seems to me that the one area where the deep keel may help is downwind. Although she slews around quite a bit, I find that Casual Water stays under control on the wave faces of the big Pacific rollers. Even under autopilot. I do try to keep my sail area forward, but had one memorable sail through quite tough conditions, downwind with only the full battened main up. It was vanged down tight, but this would never have worked with the old main. I was just too tired to do anything other than furl the jib! Yikes. The rudder assembly.....my rudder tube went through a block in the v of the hull. Sounds a lot like yours....although, interestingly, Hunter said they never made them like that! However, every 33 I have checked is the same, so "never mind"! Unfortunately, this poured block, or anything else you might pour, is not going to be that strong, structurally. What I did was to remove it, and remove the stainless tube from the remains. This I bonded and bolted inside a fiberglass tube (ready made and supplied by the yard in San Diego). This glass tube was then glassed to the bottom of the hull, so that the original steel stube was located much as before. The glass tube, much longer than the steel one, has gussets to support it in the vertical position, and passes through the original horizontal support, to which it is also glassed. The stuffing box is above this, much higher than originally, and there is yet another support, higher yet, with the upper bearing. This is held up by two rather large, vertical pieces of threaded rod, which are based in the lower horizontal, also beefed up. Re-reading this, I have almost confused myself, so if you can't decifer this puzzle, I will try again. Bottom line is that everything is very solid, and the rudder has touched firm bottom since, with no ill effects. By the way, 21 years after the tube through which the rudder shaft passes was installed, there is still minimal play between it and the rudder shaft. A question on your test rudder....with the extension aft, did the steering feel "heavier", since the ratio of surface forward and aft of the shaft was different? Another thought on weather helm. I have found Casual Water's helm to be quite sensitive to fore and aft trim. Unfortunately, with chain in the locker, the water tank forward, and solar panels, outboard motor, and wind-vane aft, she has way too much weight in her ends, so I can't play with this as much as I used to. I also had to replace the nice aluminum fuel tank with a VERY heavy steel one.....but that was another story and another six weeks out of my life...oh well!
 
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Al Walker

bigger rudder

Sam, We can do some modifications when it's time for a new rudder. You might want to check with Hunter or some engineer pals to see how much rudder an 1 1/2 " shaft can handle. Your plan to enlarge your rudders sounds ok to me but for liability reasons I can not officially endorse it. I would however be concerned about your shaft after bending it several times. I have been told that when you bend stainless in a cold state that you decrease it's tensil strength by 40-60%. You might wind up like the calls I get who say "One day I was just sailing along and heard a snap and looked to see my rudder floating away." I don't mean to be negative but you know how lawyers are these days. I feel that you have a good idea. If I can be of further assistance please let me know. Sincerely, Al Walker
 
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Terry G. Arnold

To Tim Schaaf

Tim, any chance you could post photos, drawings, or both in the photo forum of the Hunter site of the work you did in rebuilding your H33 rudder tube mounting?
 
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Tim Schaaf

To Terry

I suppose so. I think we have a scanner here in our office, although I have never used it! To tell you the truth, I have had so much fun reading everyone's text, that I haven't given the process of submitting photos any thought. By the way, I liked the photos you submitted in the Hunter 33 section. How about a hint on where to start with posting photos or drawings? It was a bitch of a project, by the way, but I liked the way it, and the strut backing re-forcement (a smaller project) came out.
 
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