I bought a Hunter 310 - build 1997 from the first owner only a few weeks ago with the intention it to move from Holland to the Mediterranean somewere in juli. This means after done the preparations and getting a feel for the boat a crossing via the south of the UK to Portugal and then through the Strait of Gibraltar going further to the Costa Blanca in Spain. The idea is to leave the boat in the south of Spain extending the sailing season with many months of sunshine as we have nowadays very cheap flights from The Netherlands to Southern Spain. Nothing better then blue water cruising as this seems to be the idea of the Hunter after all, is it not ? However without the proper knowledge and understanding it would be foolish and this is the reason for trying to get some owner information about the behavior of the 310 in heavy weather. So perhaps there are some tips and tricks that you would like to share with me about your experiences with your Hunter 310 when the wind starts to blow. Do you have special tactics or sail handling that you like to share with me. This in the understanding that this is not a survival course but just a question about the behavior of the boat beyond windforce 6. Thanks Peter
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As one crazy Dutchman to another:
sorry Peter, but I think this is a poorly thought- out plan!! I personally spent a total of 6 months living and sailing a forerunner of the Hunter 310 (viz. a Hunter 31.5) on the Chesapeake Bay in 1990 and 1991 before buying our current Hunter Legend 43, which we have sailed all over the Pacific for the past 13 seasons. Although there is little doubt in my head that you could get a vessel like that ready for serious offshore work, my estimate is that that is going to take anywhere from 1 to 2 years, depending on the amount of time, money, skills and experience you have. Moreover, sailing down the Dutch, Belgian, French, Portuguese and Spanish coasts until you can finally hang a left to Gibraltar requires a very experienced skipper, particularly when it comes to Biscayne Bay (Golf van Biscaye). You did not tell us how much offshore experience you have, but from your questions it seems pretty clear to me that you are not yet confident in your own judgment about offshore sailing vessels and conditions. That kind of confidence is not something that a few months of test sails is going to provide. Especially, since you will need a lot of time to get your vessel ready as well. So, here are a couple of suggested alternative scenarios: (1) you might want spend a year or so upgrading the vessel for offshore work; then make a trip across the channel to the English Coast and back before making the final decision about timing and routing of your planned trip to the Mediterranean; (2) you could try to find an experienced delivery skipper (IF you can find one, he or she can also tell you what the vessel needs to have done in order to be ready for the job)or put the vessel on a truck or railway car; or (3) you could read Tristan Jones' book "The Improbable Voyage" and follow the same route via the Rhine plus connecting channels and rivers to the Med (with a fairly short stretch where you will need to be trucked from one waterway to the other). Wishing you good luck (and even better judgment); Flying Dutchman
sorry Peter, but I think this is a poorly thought- out plan!! I personally spent a total of 6 months living and sailing a forerunner of the Hunter 310 (viz. a Hunter 31.5) on the Chesapeake Bay in 1990 and 1991 before buying our current Hunter Legend 43, which we have sailed all over the Pacific for the past 13 seasons. Although there is little doubt in my head that you could get a vessel like that ready for serious offshore work, my estimate is that that is going to take anywhere from 1 to 2 years, depending on the amount of time, money, skills and experience you have. Moreover, sailing down the Dutch, Belgian, French, Portuguese and Spanish coasts until you can finally hang a left to Gibraltar requires a very experienced skipper, particularly when it comes to Biscayne Bay (Golf van Biscaye). You did not tell us how much offshore experience you have, but from your questions it seems pretty clear to me that you are not yet confident in your own judgment about offshore sailing vessels and conditions. That kind of confidence is not something that a few months of test sails is going to provide. Especially, since you will need a lot of time to get your vessel ready as well. So, here are a couple of suggested alternative scenarios: (1) you might want spend a year or so upgrading the vessel for offshore work; then make a trip across the channel to the English Coast and back before making the final decision about timing and routing of your planned trip to the Mediterranean; (2) you could try to find an experienced delivery skipper (IF you can find one, he or she can also tell you what the vessel needs to have done in order to be ready for the job)or put the vessel on a truck or railway car; or (3) you could read Tristan Jones' book "The Improbable Voyage" and follow the same route via the Rhine plus connecting channels and rivers to the Med (with a fairly short stretch where you will need to be trucked from one waterway to the other). Wishing you good luck (and even better judgment); Flying Dutchman
Port Vila sounds a long way from home
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for thinking with me and your remarks are well taken. Let me respond with some thoughts as I considered the mentioned options also. The route through France is a long journey with lots of troubles and many waterlocks with up to 10 or more meters drops while the mast has to be shipped seperatly. Most ships get very damaged - and I don't like to use the motor for 6 weeks either. NO option. The truck is a good option but costs an arm and a leg and very important my ego will suffer as I bought a sailing boat. To put it blundly : I want a long journey without too much of a risk as I am borred with the Ijselmeer - So the South of Europe is the current plan. Perhaps then not this summer if my skills do not allow it - the boat is qualified till force 8 but perhaps there are people who think differently and have the experience. The reason why I am asking in this forum about behavior of this boat. Currnetly I am able to manage this thing till force 7 on my own. Now before exploring further new frontiers I wanted to get some inputs of good praktises with this particular type boat in trying to raise the level of my awerness required to get the 6 day hop across from the UK to Portugal safely and in good health done. Cheers Peter
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for thinking with me and your remarks are well taken. Let me respond with some thoughts as I considered the mentioned options also. The route through France is a long journey with lots of troubles and many waterlocks with up to 10 or more meters drops while the mast has to be shipped seperatly. Most ships get very damaged - and I don't like to use the motor for 6 weeks either. NO option. The truck is a good option but costs an arm and a leg and very important my ego will suffer as I bought a sailing boat. To put it blundly : I want a long journey without too much of a risk as I am borred with the Ijselmeer - So the South of Europe is the current plan. Perhaps then not this summer if my skills do not allow it - the boat is qualified till force 8 but perhaps there are people who think differently and have the experience. The reason why I am asking in this forum about behavior of this boat. Currnetly I am able to manage this thing till force 7 on my own. Now before exploring further new frontiers I wanted to get some inputs of good praktises with this particular type boat in trying to raise the level of my awerness required to get the 6 day hop across from the UK to Portugal safely and in good health done. Cheers Peter
How to find more answers
Peter, your second post indicates that you may possess just the right combination of flexibility and tenacity to achieve your ambitious goal. You face two major challenges, namely how to get your boat ready and how to get yourself ready. This site is the right place to learn about your boat, provided your questions are specific enough to bring out the specialists who don't have the inclination or the time for long open-ended discussions but can tell you exactly what to try and do to give your boat less weather helm, or more speed, or less heeling and so on and so forth. Moreover this site has an extensive archive where you can research earlier discussion about the same topic for comparably sized Hunters. Questions about the proposed route to the Mediterranean and various ways to prepare yourself (e.g. with shorter offshore test sails) are best asked on usenet newsgroups such as <uk.rec.sailing> or <nl.sport.varen>. The link below is to the latter NG (using Google groups) but you should be able to use a variety of news servers to visit these groups. Again, searching the newsgroup archives (using Google groups) may be the fastest way to find the information you want. Please keep us posted about your progress and don't hesitate to ask more questions regarding your boat. Flying Dutchman
Peter, your second post indicates that you may possess just the right combination of flexibility and tenacity to achieve your ambitious goal. You face two major challenges, namely how to get your boat ready and how to get yourself ready. This site is the right place to learn about your boat, provided your questions are specific enough to bring out the specialists who don't have the inclination or the time for long open-ended discussions but can tell you exactly what to try and do to give your boat less weather helm, or more speed, or less heeling and so on and so forth. Moreover this site has an extensive archive where you can research earlier discussion about the same topic for comparably sized Hunters. Questions about the proposed route to the Mediterranean and various ways to prepare yourself (e.g. with shorter offshore test sails) are best asked on usenet newsgroups such as <uk.rec.sailing> or <nl.sport.varen>. The link below is to the latter NG (using Google groups) but you should be able to use a variety of news servers to visit these groups. Again, searching the newsgroup archives (using Google groups) may be the fastest way to find the information you want. Please keep us posted about your progress and don't hesitate to ask more questions regarding your boat. Flying Dutchman
Good stuff
Henk, Thanks for all your information and links. It opens a new world as I did not know how these user groups worked. Very interesting with a lot of knowledge flying around. I bought a book very recent at the HISWA boatshow from Peter Stuiversand with TIPS and TRICKS for off-shore sailors. It is a dutch writer with something like 400.000 miles on his log - anyway I have a lot of leads to get more understanding and with some help I will put it to the test in order to get the real part also under control - Thanks for your help and good luck with your sailing, Peter
Henk, Thanks for all your information and links. It opens a new world as I did not know how these user groups worked. Very interesting with a lot of knowledge flying around. I bought a book very recent at the HISWA boatshow from Peter Stuiversand with TIPS and TRICKS for off-shore sailors. It is a dutch writer with something like 400.000 miles on his log - anyway I have a lot of leads to get more understanding and with some help I will put it to the test in order to get the real part also under control - Thanks for your help and good luck with your sailing, Peter
We sure can use the good luck right now...
After category 3 cyclone "Ivy" smashed through the Vanuatu islands 1 day ago (see image), I still don't know whether any of our clinics survived or if "Rivendel II" will ever sail again. Flying Dutchman
After category 3 cyclone "Ivy" smashed through the Vanuatu islands 1 day ago (see image), I still don't know whether any of our clinics survived or if "Rivendel II" will ever sail again. Flying Dutchman
Attachments
My God Henk
That sounds ominous! I am sure many of us would like to be kept informed of your situation as you have time. You and yours will remain in our thoughts and prayers. Ward
That sounds ominous! I am sure many of us would like to be kept informed of your situation as you have time. You and yours will remain in our thoughts and prayers. Ward
Thanks for your concern and prayers
The hardest part is, of course, not to know what has happened. We left refurbished Motorola 9500 Iridium phones in 2 clinics but both had problems from day 1 because Outfitter Satellite didn't care to reprogram them before sending them to us (they were set up for their field engineers to call back home,; all other functions were blocked ). The year before, we installed 3 new SG-2020 SSB transceivers which transmitted great but had very poor receivers (sic). The year before that Project MARC's Magellan GC1000 (Orbcom) transceivers turned out to be worth nothing in the S. Pacific because too many satellites get into each other's way. Only, our trusty Inmarsat Mini-M phone always works there, but is basically too expensive and complex to leave behind. The long and the short is, we may only find out what the situation on Ambrym and Malakula is after our 2004 quartermaker team arrives there early July..... With regard to Rivendel II; we have to anticipate that the cradle has toppled. However, if Laurent (the owner of the yard) has not lost all his repair sheds and supplies, he is clever enough to fix nearly anything, given time and money. So, we 'll just have to wait for the first e-mail message or phone call from him. Right now, the phone lines still appear to be down. Flying Dutchman PS I am attaching a link to a very informative Australian site for all of the Pacific.
The hardest part is, of course, not to know what has happened. We left refurbished Motorola 9500 Iridium phones in 2 clinics but both had problems from day 1 because Outfitter Satellite didn't care to reprogram them before sending them to us (they were set up for their field engineers to call back home,; all other functions were blocked ). The year before, we installed 3 new SG-2020 SSB transceivers which transmitted great but had very poor receivers (sic). The year before that Project MARC's Magellan GC1000 (Orbcom) transceivers turned out to be worth nothing in the S. Pacific because too many satellites get into each other's way. Only, our trusty Inmarsat Mini-M phone always works there, but is basically too expensive and complex to leave behind. The long and the short is, we may only find out what the situation on Ambrym and Malakula is after our 2004 quartermaker team arrives there early July..... With regard to Rivendel II; we have to anticipate that the cradle has toppled. However, if Laurent (the owner of the yard) has not lost all his repair sheds and supplies, he is clever enough to fix nearly anything, given time and money. So, we 'll just have to wait for the first e-mail message or phone call from him. Right now, the phone lines still appear to be down. Flying Dutchman PS I am attaching a link to a very informative Australian site for all of the Pacific.
Henk, I only had a boat to worry about after
hurricane Louis. But I can guess how you must feel. The one lesson I learned was I should have gotten to the boat ASAP. A lot of damage would have been minimized! Best of luck.
hurricane Louis. But I can guess how you must feel. The one lesson I learned was I should have gotten to the boat ASAP. A lot of damage would have been minimized! Best of luck.
Potverdrie - Henk
My goodness, this looks ugly Henk. More then trouble... Is there anything I can do ( from this winter location )Perhaps not much but still - you may ask. Further I hope you and your family are well, Regards Peter
My goodness, this looks ugly Henk. More then trouble... Is there anything I can do ( from this winter location )Perhaps not much but still - you may ask. Further I hope you and your family are well, Regards Peter
A warned man
A response more to the point with regard to the Hunter 310 as I found in one of the user groups for your information : the fine bow entry and wide stern hull, the winged bulb keel and big spade rudder that Luhrs/Hunter love make are the the last kind of vessel on which I'd ever want to try to lie-ahull in a storm. On top of that with all the windows in the Hunter you don't want to passively wait for a multi-ton wave to break over your boat broadside, anyway. Also the big cockpit is drained by a very big opening through the split transom, but until it drains out it holds a lot of pounds of water. Even finding the right combination of reefed main and roller-reefed jib for heaving-to is tricky. In heavy weather these boats require active management, which is extremely tiring for small crews on long passages. They can handle some pretty rough stuff when so managed, but the boat may be able to handle more than the crew can, as the saying goes.
A response more to the point with regard to the Hunter 310 as I found in one of the user groups for your information : the fine bow entry and wide stern hull, the winged bulb keel and big spade rudder that Luhrs/Hunter love make are the the last kind of vessel on which I'd ever want to try to lie-ahull in a storm. On top of that with all the windows in the Hunter you don't want to passively wait for a multi-ton wave to break over your boat broadside, anyway. Also the big cockpit is drained by a very big opening through the split transom, but until it drains out it holds a lot of pounds of water. Even finding the right combination of reefed main and roller-reefed jib for heaving-to is tricky. In heavy weather these boats require active management, which is extremely tiring for small crews on long passages. They can handle some pretty rough stuff when so managed, but the boat may be able to handle more than the crew can, as the saying goes.
Rivendel II survived cyclone
Have been traveling a few days. Thanks for the supportive messages! Just received an e-mail message from Laurent, the owner of "Latitude 17.14 South", the small French boat yard in Port Vila where our own sailing vessel "Rivendel II" is dry-berthed. Apparently, the phone lines in Port Vila are working again. The eye of "Ivy" passed by within a very short distance from the yard with winds up to 200 km/hr. Laurent's own sailing vessel fell off it's cradle and is badly damaged. Also, two Taiwanese fishing trawlers sunk right in front of the yard and are currently blocking cruise and container ships from berthing in Port Vila harbor. Miraculously, however, "Rivendel II" which Laurent and his staff tied up to ground anchors and nearby trees appears not to have suffered any damage other than being covered in flying debris. With a little luck, she should be able to carry out her 2004 sailing schedule for Project MARC. Alas, there is still no news about the fate of the villages in SE Malakula, the Maskelynes and North Ambrym, nor about that of the aid posts, clinics and schools supported by Project MARC. However, we were able to communicate with Norsup Hospital in Central Malakula which was a little further away from the center of "Ivy" and has been spared. Nonetheless, they do report extensive crop damage in their area and appear to have received an urgent request for more medical supplies from our Shell Beach clinic in SE Malakula. Wednesday evening we will try to reach our clinic manager by telephone in order to learn about the situation there. Besides the reported lack of medical supplies, the biggest short-term threats are likely to be food shortages due to massive crop damage. Flying Dutchman PS Sorry for hijacking your Hunter 310 thread, Peter. If you have time to come to the premiere of Robin Sip's documentary "Roving Doctors" on April 22nd in Natuurhistorisch Museum Naturalis in Leiden (The Netherlands) I will ask Robin to send you an invitation. Nelleke and I will both be there. HM
Have been traveling a few days. Thanks for the supportive messages! Just received an e-mail message from Laurent, the owner of "Latitude 17.14 South", the small French boat yard in Port Vila where our own sailing vessel "Rivendel II" is dry-berthed. Apparently, the phone lines in Port Vila are working again. The eye of "Ivy" passed by within a very short distance from the yard with winds up to 200 km/hr. Laurent's own sailing vessel fell off it's cradle and is badly damaged. Also, two Taiwanese fishing trawlers sunk right in front of the yard and are currently blocking cruise and container ships from berthing in Port Vila harbor. Miraculously, however, "Rivendel II" which Laurent and his staff tied up to ground anchors and nearby trees appears not to have suffered any damage other than being covered in flying debris. With a little luck, she should be able to carry out her 2004 sailing schedule for Project MARC. Alas, there is still no news about the fate of the villages in SE Malakula, the Maskelynes and North Ambrym, nor about that of the aid posts, clinics and schools supported by Project MARC. However, we were able to communicate with Norsup Hospital in Central Malakula which was a little further away from the center of "Ivy" and has been spared. Nonetheless, they do report extensive crop damage in their area and appear to have received an urgent request for more medical supplies from our Shell Beach clinic in SE Malakula. Wednesday evening we will try to reach our clinic manager by telephone in order to learn about the situation there. Besides the reported lack of medical supplies, the biggest short-term threats are likely to be food shortages due to massive crop damage. Flying Dutchman PS Sorry for hijacking your Hunter 310 thread, Peter. If you have time to come to the premiere of Robin Sip's documentary "Roving Doctors" on April 22nd in Natuurhistorisch Museum Naturalis in Leiden (The Netherlands) I will ask Robin to send you an invitation. Nelleke and I will both be there. HM
Glad to Hear it Henk!
Just shows what clean living will do. Were it mine it would likely landed landed on my head.
Just shows what clean living will do. Were it mine it would likely landed landed on my head.
Agree with Peter's "warned man" post
Few, if any, medium light cruisers/racers are constructed to ly ahull in heavy seas, thereby greatly increasing the risk of being rolled and/or pooped by breaking waves. Unfortunately, the smaller a vessel the higher the chance of being rolled by big waves appears to be (see, for instance, the table in John Rousmaniere's classic book "Force 10" about the infamous "Fastnet" storm). I fully agree that active storm survival tactics, such as slowly jogging against the wind under storm jib (as the 35 ft medium light racer "Midnight Rambler" did very successfully during the disastrous Sydney/Hobart race a few years ago ) or running off with a drogue, offer the best approach. Also, the risk of deck hatches and cabin windows being shattered by breaking waves would appear to become relatively high after loosing the "active" boat handling option, e.g. because crew members are incapacitated, no storm sails can be set or the rig has gone overboard. Loosing the rig appears to be an odds-on consequence of being rolled. On "Rivendel II", I not only bolted most deck hatches up with SS bars but also replaced all acrylic hatches and windows with 1/2" polycarbonate. Moreover, the weakest spot in the coach roof was reinforced with 1/4 " SS brackets. However, since Nelleke has been getting fed up with bolted-down hatches in a tropical climate, we are actually planning to put a couple of "offshore quality" opening hatches in this season. Since everyone agrees, however, that very few vessels (or sailors) are built to withstand every possible survival condition (including collisions) it all amounts to proper preparation of vessel and crew, as well careful routing and timing of passages. The incidence of vessels and crews being lost in spite of proper preparation, judgment and seamanship, although certainly not zero, is so low that I do have difficulty coming up with a single example right off the top of my head. Now if all of us were equally careful in selecting, preparing maintaining and operating our automobiles as we are in dealing with our boats, our lives would truly become a heck of a lot safer. Judging by the forever raging internet debates about storm survival, the fear of drowning on the ocean must be disproportionally large compared to the fear of being smashed to a pulp on the world's highways..... Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Few, if any, medium light cruisers/racers are constructed to ly ahull in heavy seas, thereby greatly increasing the risk of being rolled and/or pooped by breaking waves. Unfortunately, the smaller a vessel the higher the chance of being rolled by big waves appears to be (see, for instance, the table in John Rousmaniere's classic book "Force 10" about the infamous "Fastnet" storm). I fully agree that active storm survival tactics, such as slowly jogging against the wind under storm jib (as the 35 ft medium light racer "Midnight Rambler" did very successfully during the disastrous Sydney/Hobart race a few years ago ) or running off with a drogue, offer the best approach. Also, the risk of deck hatches and cabin windows being shattered by breaking waves would appear to become relatively high after loosing the "active" boat handling option, e.g. because crew members are incapacitated, no storm sails can be set or the rig has gone overboard. Loosing the rig appears to be an odds-on consequence of being rolled. On "Rivendel II", I not only bolted most deck hatches up with SS bars but also replaced all acrylic hatches and windows with 1/2" polycarbonate. Moreover, the weakest spot in the coach roof was reinforced with 1/4 " SS brackets. However, since Nelleke has been getting fed up with bolted-down hatches in a tropical climate, we are actually planning to put a couple of "offshore quality" opening hatches in this season. Since everyone agrees, however, that very few vessels (or sailors) are built to withstand every possible survival condition (including collisions) it all amounts to proper preparation of vessel and crew, as well careful routing and timing of passages. The incidence of vessels and crews being lost in spite of proper preparation, judgment and seamanship, although certainly not zero, is so low that I do have difficulty coming up with a single example right off the top of my head. Now if all of us were equally careful in selecting, preparing maintaining and operating our automobiles as we are in dealing with our boats, our lives would truly become a heck of a lot safer. Judging by the forever raging internet debates about storm survival, the fear of drowning on the ocean must be disproportionally large compared to the fear of being smashed to a pulp on the world's highways..... Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Good Fortune
Not at all a problem for the use of this thread. Also I feel very honnored to be invited to the premiere of Robin Sip's documentary "Roving Doctors" on April 22nd in Natuurhistorisch Museum Naturalis in Leiden. Please forward my address to Robin for an invitation and could you wear a yellow tulip ? This order to recognize you in the crowds. Meanwhile would like to congratulate you with your good fortune as the boat seems to be oke - Cheers, look forward to meet you and Nelleke, Peter - Laan van Albert's Hoeve 37 - 1902 PR Castricum.
Not at all a problem for the use of this thread. Also I feel very honnored to be invited to the premiere of Robin Sip's documentary "Roving Doctors" on April 22nd in Natuurhistorisch Museum Naturalis in Leiden. Please forward my address to Robin for an invitation and could you wear a yellow tulip ? This order to recognize you in the crowds. Meanwhile would like to congratulate you with your good fortune as the boat seems to be oke - Cheers, look forward to meet you and Nelleke, Peter - Laan van Albert's Hoeve 37 - 1902 PR Castricum.
Henk, great news, thanks! Now, 'think flood'
I was lying awake this morning thinking how I would secure your halyards to immovable objects. Your caretaker is priceless! I'm sure you know cyclones dump 'feet' of water along with that debris. If you rely on cockpit scuppers like my boat does, well, again, think flooding. I had over a thousand gallons below. P.S. Peter, sorry, I'm done.
I was lying awake this morning thinking how I would secure your halyards to immovable objects. Your caretaker is priceless! I'm sure you know cyclones dump 'feet' of water along with that debris. If you rely on cockpit scuppers like my boat does, well, again, think flooding. I had over a thousand gallons below. P.S. Peter, sorry, I'm done.
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