HUNTER 27 Edge cassette-mounted rudder flooded and locked

[mkrawats]

Hi.

I have a 2011 Hunter 27 The Edge sailboat. The boat is kept in the water at a local marina. Our friends and family love to go sailing on it a couple of times a week.

The underwater plate of the VARA rudder's drum system should be completely flat with the underwater bottom of the hull. The drum should not create any excess resistance to the water.

But on my boat, the VARA rudder's drum is 1-2 inches below the waterline. This is causing major issues when motoring. When the boat is moving with speed, the submerged drum creates excess resistance in the water, and floods the rudder cage with more than a foot of seawater. Once full and heavy with seawater, the VARA's drum no longer rotates, the rudder is locked, and steering is lost.

Below is a picture of the inside of the rudder cage, looking down at the top of the VARA rudder drum. The rudder is in the down position. It may be difficult to see in the picture, but the round drum in the middle of this picture is a couple of inches below the rest of the hull.

Is anyone familiar with the VARA rudder system for this Hunter sailboat? How is the drum installed and repaired? How can it be adjusted to raise it a couple of inches higher to be flat with the rest of the bottom of the hull?

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Re: HUNTER 27 Edge cassette-mounted rudder flooded and locke

I am a retired sailboat dealer who introduced this boat. It has been some time since working on the drum assembly or cassette as you referred. So I have to recollect my thoughts on this. I think the rotating cage or drum assembly is designed to protrude downward from the hull but I could be wrong. Please take a photo of the hull showing the drum assembly below the hull to start off with and when I see it, I will go to some folks to see if I can get an exploded view of that drum. It may take some time as I winding down with Boy Scout Summer Camps as the boat repairman but again a photo would help. Put it here on the forum but also send it to me via the forum email. I will post findings and suggestions to help you

 

[Jackdaw]

Re: HUNTER 27 Edge cassette-mounted rudder flooded and locke

I'm assuming the rudder cassette is a variation of the VARA rudders that Glen Henderson used on several of his Hunter (h216) and several of his own boats, the Henderson 30 in particular. Its a clever if not slightly problematic design. The shaftless rudder blade turns in a coffee-can shaped cassette that allows the blade to come up and down. Large bearing surfaces top and bottom allow it to turn. These were prone to wear excessively and/or fail. It looks like this image, taken from the website of the builder of the Henderson 30.

I've been on the H30 many times, and I can tell you that the bottom of the cassette was absolutely flush with the bottom of the boat. Dave might have some idea why yours is not; I would assume it should be. Hunter had problems with the original VARA rudder on the 216 but I think sorted it out. I would hope those learnings made it to your boat. PS - that cassette CAN be disassembled.

 

[mkrawats]

Thank you, Dave and Jack for responding to my inquiry.

I agree with Jack. The rudder cassette needs to be flush with the bottom of the boat. With the cassette currently protruding into the water, anything above 4 knots of boat speed (2000 RPM) causes the rudder cage to quickly fill with seawater and freezes the steering. Stopping the boat for a few seconds allows the seawater to drain and restores the steering again.

The boat is kept in the water at a local marina. So it is a bit challenging to take an underwater photo of the bottom of the hull. I will try to snap some underwater photos within the next several weeks when the water clarity permits.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Re: HUNTER 27 Edge cassette-mounted rudder flooded and locke

If anyone owning a Hunter Edge 27, can they take a photo of the hull showing the rotating drum assembly for the rudder and post here as no one is for sure if that was flush or not with the bottom of the hull. In one diagram it shows an outline of that below the hull yet someone else feels it should be flush. I have now received 1 page from engineering thanks to Greg Emerson trying to help here but does not show whether or not the drum assembly should be flush or protrude some from the hull in the drawing. This is all engineering had on it. Many thanks to Mr Emerson for helping.

Mkrwats; Please forward via forum email to me direct your contact information and we can go from there.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

On Page 73 of the owner's manual found under Hunter 27 edge in the model selection found in Owners Resources, in the upper left is a dotted line of the area showing the rudder drum or vara assembly. I cannot tell if the rotating drum/cassette protrudes and/or section holding the assembly protrudes from the bottom of the hull. This is why I need to know if the drum and or the section holding the drum/cassette actually extends below the water line. That dotted line does not help unless it is meant to be the area being shown in perspective to the location on the boat.

Greg Emerson checked with engineering and this is all they have on it. My thanks to Mr. Emerson at Marlow Hunter for the help. The photo supplied in the original post is also good. If you will look at the top of the drum/cassette assembly, there are four stainless steel nuts.

In the diagram from Hunter, it does not show if the drum assembly or cassette protrudes from the bottom or not. However, it mentions rudder bearings for his VARA system. Thank you Jackdaw for the drawing and information which helped too.

The drum/cassette is not rotating. An inspection needs to be made. Therefore the boat needs to come out of the water. Put a tarp below it and then look at the bottom of the drum needs to be checked in the event of damage for example running aground very hard with the rudder hitting in the down position possibly cracking the bottom plate. If found to be in good shape, then is there any debri or marine growth preventing this. If all responses are no, then I suspect the bearings in the drum/cassette may have failed. There were issues with the Hunter 216 until the bearings were changed out to a different material. Then the assembly has to be taken apart and I think this is via the four nuts in the original post on top of the assembly. This is why the boat has to be removed from the water and suggest a tarp to collect if anything falls out.

Contact Al with the forum store to see if the rudder bearings were the same used in the 216 or if they match. Without further inspection, I am at a loss as to what may be happening.

 

[Jackdaw]

Re: HUNTER 27 Edge cassette-mounted rudder flooded and locke

Dave the drawing is a great find.

Looking at it I assume the 'drum' is just two discs of delrin, pulled tight to the bearing surfaces at the bottom of rudder skirt and the hull by the pressure of the 4 long bolts.

It might be worth it to first remove the blade, and then simply see if the drum can be pulled upward by hand. If it can, it might indicate that the bolts are loose and simply need to be tightened. Sadly there is a large amount of corrosion on the hardware.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Re: HUNTER 27 Edge cassette-mounted rudder flooded and locke

Jackdaw;

Thank you for advising to remove the rudder first. Not sure it nuts are loose but either way I would put that boat on the trailer first if the drum should come apart while boat is in the water which is why I suggested. I think but cannot remember taking one apart as it was a long time ago. Again thank you for your imput Mr. Jackdaw.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw;

Thank you for advising to remove the rudder first. Not sure it nuts are loose but either way I would put that boat on the trailer first if the drum should come apart while boat is in the water which is why I suggested. I think but cannot remember taking one apart as it was a long time ago. Again thank you for your imput Mr. Jackdaw.

Oh so sure much better to examine this out of the water. But a simple test might offer a quick solution. If not I agree best hauled and examined on the hard.

 

[sightline]

Steering Cable for Edge 27

First off the drum protrudes a little below the bottom of the boat about an inch I tried to attach a picture here not sure if it worked. Don't panic if you see the bottom of the rudder chewed up, boat ramp accident all is repaired! I do have a steering question, my wheel is totally locked up and won move in either direction. Does anyone know what manufactureer Hunter used for this cable? Anyone know what may be a work around besides replacing the cable? Thank you.
Ray

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Re: HUNTER 27 Edge cassette-mounted rudder flooded and locke

There is a separate post with photos of the H 27 VARA rudder system with pictures posted and one is showing the drum a little below the hull which is normal.

Take a photo of the steering and send it to davecondon@mindspring.com

I introduced this boat but need to refresh myself and then I can call you and discuss what to look for.

 

[woodster]

Hello Im pretending to buy a Hunter 30 and sail it from Florida to Chile (south America) I Would like to have opinions about the Hunter performance offshore

You may want to start a new thread with your question in order to get answers

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Re: HUNTER 27 Edge cassette-mounted rudder flooded and locke

Woodster;

I have researched for information and not much coming. I posted what photos and diagrams under Vera and Vara rudders that I did get so anyone looking at this refer to the the thread with photos of the VARA rudder for the Hunter edge 27 and also the diagram that JACKDAW was kind to take his time and find and post it here in this thread.

I have an inquiry about the motor not turning; however, my info is limited there except to check the rudder by disconnecting from the steering to see if it moves first and if it does, then contact an Evinrude dealer. The fellow advised that he freed it up once but I have asked for more information and the specific engine and will post what I hear.

Sorry gents but I have done a lot of research with not much success.

 

[mkrawats]

Thanks for the photo, Ray. Sorry to see the damage to the rudder. This accident can easily happen since the rudder is well hidden inside our captain's chair... out of site, out of mind. Just curious, how did you repair it?

RE: your steering issue.

When at speed, my rudder system has some difficulty steering too. I am assuming this steering resistance is being caused by the water drag due to the drop of the VARA steering system's lower bearing plate an extra 1-2" below the hull. How did you diagnose it as an issue with the cable? Did you already disassemble the VARA drum and verify there was no issue with the two bearing plates and its ball bearings?

FYI.. A new ticket has been opened with the folks at HunterOwners.com. They too are researching the issue, leveraging their contacts with the Hunter factory.

 

[mkrawats]

I appreciate everyone's help on this issue. An order for replacements for all the rusted metal parts has been placed. The boat will be scheduled for haul out in a couple of weeks, when the VARA rudder drum will be disassembled and reassembled. In preparation for the haulout, I wish to learn more info about the normal setup of the upper bearing plate.

Below is a link to a video of the upper bearing plate taken from my cell phone through the inspection port behind the outboard motor.

https://youtu.be/BWVzR2oBgM0

Notice in the photo below that the upper bearing plate is sunk 1" into the pod. What is the normal location for this plate?