Hunter 23.5 Storm Jib

[VT Fitz]

I need some advice for what I assume is a storm jib.

So the Admiral isn’t greatly fond of heeling, and if I ease sails, I’m not greatly fond of any luffing or flogging.

We carry the standard sails that came with our H23.5 (yes, it’s time to replace this suite!): full size main with one reef and a full size, hanked on jib. If the breeze gets past 10 kts, we are definitely taking a reef and maybe dropping the jib. If it’s breezy before we initially raise sail, sometimes we only go under one sail: main, reefed main, or jib.

However, I recently remembered that the PO gave us another sail that we had never flown. Last weekend, we had stripped down to bare poles and stowed the jib bag prior to the possibility of Hermine blowing into LI Sound. So yesterday, with nothing hanked on and a breeze anticipated to blow 10-15 kts, I decided to start under a reef and this alternate jib. The rig gave us 3.5-4 kts and minimal heel, which was good for the Admiral, but now that I have some experience with it, I have questions.

It’s pretty small and a fairly heavy material, so it must be a storm jib. The dimensions are:

Luff – 10’ 3”
Leech – 8’ 4”
Foot – 6’ 0”
LP (Luff Perpendicular) – 4’ 6”
Sail Area – 46.2 sq ft

It’s hanked, so it can only go on the forestay. Some internet info I saw suggested that’s a bit too forward, but right now there’s no other attachment point for the tack/pennant.

Yesterday, I tacked it down at the normal jib tack – as opposed to how it looks in this picture – and I don’t think it really was doing much good. On the internet I saw that most storm jibs have a pennant to get it higher. In this picture, it’s about 42” high. Someone at the dock suggested just above the pulpit. (As a practical matter, if it’s tacked higher, it would be easier to rig on the fly. I could just securely tie off the main jib to the rail, hank on above the main jib hanks, and switch over the halyard.)

The PO had pre-rigged a pair of snap shackles and blocks with it. I put them on the forward stanchion attachment points for the mast raising bridles (not shown/rigged in picture). More forward fairlead blocks made sense and that attachment looked like the only real option.

One of the reasons I’m considering using this sail more often is it seems to me that since the boat is designed for two sails, its balance might be better always flying two sails instead of just the jib or main (or reefed main).

Does anyone have experience with this sail, and, in particularly, how high would you make the tack? Also, assuming I’ll fly it more often in 10+ kts, would it make sense to put on tell tales?

Thanks for any thoughts.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

I would suggest for ease a roller furler for example the FF2 by CDI. Rarely you would use that sail and if caught up in a blow or strong winds, you can reduce the existing sail quickly and more safely than trying t o change sails in strong winds that could be dangerous.

 

[VT Fitz]

That’s the best option, Dave, no question.

But here’s the thing… A furler – and the new sail and rigging to go with it – is gonna cost well over $1k, plus having to install the rigging. This sail costs NOTHING, and I have the rigging!

Also, we are actively planning on stepping up to the H260, hopefully by next season, so I’m not dropping that kind of dough into a boat I’m selling soon anyway: I don’t think I would recover the cost in a higher selling price than what I’d get for her as-is.

Realize that if the conditions are such that this sail is “needed,” we’re in port. We don’t go out if it’s already 15+ kts, and we rarely cruise that far from our homeport or a nearby hidey-hole.

I don’t actually think it would be that hard to rig it. And, again, since there’s a limit to what we will go out in, if it I’m expecting 10+ kts, I’d probably start with it rigged, and if it’s not too bad after all, drop it & fly the regular jib. By definition, that would mean it’s not blowing too hard to venture calmly into the foretriangle.

I guess if I were serious about it, I would install a folding padeye (to reduce stubbed toes!) further back in the foretriangle and add another halyard. Obviously, that implies I wouldn’t hank it to anything. But part of this strategy is to make it work with what I already have.

My main thought is that if it’s blowing hard enough (10-15 kts) that I would normally only fly one sail, wouldn't she have better balance to fly this little guy rather than nothing? Does that make sense? Or would a sail this small not really help the balance, presumably under a reefed main?

The question I’m looking at most particularly is how high to tack it.

 

[VT Fitz]

As I’ve looked deeper into this question, I’m reading it’s unwise to rely on reefing a furling jib in extreme conditions:

“Likewise you should not attempt to ride out a storm with a rolled-up headsail… the sail will not be strong enough for gale-force condition… Relying on a furling line to keep the sail reefed, or some kind of pin device to do the same is unsafe. There is an immense amount of torque on the furling unit and gale-force conditions only add to this torque. Furling lines break with alarming regularity and having to deal with fixing a pin on the bow of the boat when a storm is rising is unseamanlike at best.”

It recommends a product like the Gale Sail, which has a sleeve which goes over the furler headsail. Here’s the full article:

http://www.sailingbreezes.com/sailing_breezes_current/articles/Nov04/Maximumsail.htm

Here’s a link to another article on storm jibs to use with a furler:

http://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/cruising-tips/know-storm-sails/

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

VT;
You have no idea to my relationship with the 23.5 Hunter at all. I will let those who know me chime in.
You already have to replace the 110 jib lapper and best place is this forum store as they were first contacted by Hunter to handle retail sails. As for the furler, instructions come with it on how to put this together using the existing forestay. Thus no new rigging is needed. Yes you will have to pay for that furler. As for rolling in the jib when the winds become stronger gradually or all of a sudden is simply point into the wind, release the sheet line and pull in on the furling line and that is a lot more quicker than going up forward either your wife, children or you to lower the 110 jib, bag it and to put up that storm jib. You have to point into the wind just to put up the sail. I have been on a 23.5 with someone who had purchased a storm jib allowing his wife to go forward to change that sail with the boat thrashing about and overboard she went. He finally listened as it made more sense and ALOT MORE SAFER. Sure I am not easy with this answer but I also err on the side of safety as I have seen the loss of life on the water. I have an old expression, If you respect the water, water will respect you; otherwise you will die. Please sir think this over with that storm jib. As for the lady, she survived and once out of the water, there was no question what occurred next, buying the furler.
If you planned on keeping the existing sail, it can be converted. It takes I think a #6 luff tape and put on a sunbrella cover. If you still have the original green, it is called Persian green.
I overlooked you are considereing the 260. That was my pride and joy and yes I introduced that boat as well which served it's pourpose.

 

[VT Fitz]

VT;
You have no idea to my relationship with the 23.5 Hunter at all.

Yum, with all due respect... yes, Dave, I do. I've been here for almost 10 years. You have replied to and helped me with several topics.

 

[VT Fitz]

Dave, I don't think you are quite appreciating my purpose. Please reread my posts. I'm not sailing in 15+ kts. My main purpose is finding out if the sail would be useful in 10-15 kts, probably rigged at the outset.

The Admiral gets nervous quickly when we heel. Often, we just go under one sail in 10+ kts. I know full well you are "the godfather" of this model. Given your knowledge of the H23.5 design, would it useful for the balance of the boat to add this headsail to a main or reefed main in 10-15 its?

Basically, the question is one small headsail or no headsail? The investment into a furler just isn't gonna happen.

 

[Benny17441]

VT I think that for your intended purpose using that small jib will serve you well. If it were me I would lower it some and it would further reduce the unwanted heel. I'm not a friend of using a furler to reef a headsail as the resulting sail shape is not very efficient but I do use them as a matter of convenience to avoid having to change sails when underway.

 

[JohnVTX]

VT I think that for your intended purpose using that small jib will serve you well. If it were me I would lower it some and it would further reduce the unwanted heel. I'm not a friend of using a furler to reef a headsail as the resulting sail shape is not very efficient but I do use them as a matter of convenience to avoid having to change sails when underway.

You change the location of the car when sheeting genoa. What is the purpose of having a furling genoa if you cannot change the car location? Just get a hank on

 

[VT Fitz]

Thanks, Benny.

Yes, the convenience/safety factor of simply reefing the furler is considerable, but reading about the possibility of mechanical failure under stress and a less-than-optimal sail shape are also important factors to consider. In a real blow, you would need a stiffer, flatter sail.

I'm thinking just above the pulpit would be a good height for the tack. I realize I'm not getting a lot of drive out of it wherever it's tacked, but it seemed pretty useless tacked to the deck.

John, the H23.5 doesn't have jib tracks/cars. Also, I suggest the primary purpose of a furling headsail is ease of striking sail, not reefing/shortening, though I concede it is used that way. As you correctly identify, as you shorten the sail, the fairleads really should be adjusted for efficient sail shape.

Another factor, I've read in the past that as the furler rolls in, the increased mass on the luff significantly messes up airflow, angle of attack, and pointing ability.

 

[Benny17441]

I'm thinking just above the pulpit would be a good height for the tack
.

I do agree with that location. I see you have swept back spreaders with no backstay which would be indicative or a rather large main sail to adequately power the boat. I would consider that sailing with a head sail, rather than none, would help to provide balance to the rig. It should work perfectly well in winds of 15 knots.

 

[Joe]

I think you will address your fear of heeling if you simply put another reef in your mainsail. That will cost around $100. (I don't think a third reef is out of the question either, considering your wife's fears)

The storm jib, by definition, will have very little, if any, draft built into it. So your trim options once it's set are pretty limited. However, it works better with a double or triple reefed mainsail. The whole idea is to get the center of effort for both sails close and low to the center of the boat.

The addition of an inner forestay will make the storm jib way more effective.... but that's an expense you may not want to make.... opting maybe for a new "blade" (working jib)

Back to the storm jib, I would tack it the way you have it in the picture but match the height to your double reefed mainsail.

Other than the additional reefs, I wouldn't spend any more money on this boat's rig. Rather I'd start saving for a new sail or two.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

VT
You have been around and if you want a storm jib, each person has their own thoughts and Ideas. I respect that but also respect what I have to say with 50 plus years of sailing and over 30 years as a dealer who also designed boats and trailers to include major innovations. I do not prefer storm jibs on small boats paticuraly trailerables for a lot of reasons as you can see because I look for that one moment anything could happen. Anyway, I never once had a customer of mine request a storm jib on the Hunter water ballast boats. I found after years of sailing the 23.5 talking with too many folks who have either owned or sailed that boat, they usually after reefing even with a second reef in the main while using the standard jib or furling jib whichever, dropped sails and came in. As for heeling, I found that heeling over 12-14 degrees was not necessary as the boat sails faster flatter which included sail control as well. There is nothing further I will say on this issue.