Hunter 216 light air

[Hunter216]

Acquired a 216 late last fall so didn’t get much of a chance to sail it before winter set in here in the GWN. I’ve also been somewhat occupied with the record setting high water here on Lake Ontario which is partly caused by a lot of unsettled rainy weather so have just recently managed to get some solid sailing time in.

The summer thermals have not started so many of my outings have been in conditions where I wouldn’t have been bothered to sail our previous full keeled boat as it would have been more like “controlled drifting” than sailing.

However the 216 just takes off in very light breezes so it’s been fun cruising by much larger boats. I’m sure the complete opposite will occur in any significant air at least upwind however it’s fun to see my “competitors” looking at their sail trim trying to figure out why it’s happening!

Although it’s over 21 feet long it tacks really quickly (think laser) so taking advantage of any wind shifts is very productive in getting me upwind faster and any little puff adds a burst of speed.

 

[Hunter216]

I’m curious if the new version of the 216 which I believe they named the H22 sails better/worse/same as the 216. Has anyone sailed both?

 

[Hunter216]

I had some fun today sailing with the asym. Light wind so perfect for working the kinks out of launching, retrieving and figuring out what angles I can sail before I try it in some more serious wind conditions. Kind of a handful singlehanded but relatively easy in light wind. Lots of time and safer to sort out the inevitable ooppsssyy!

I had trouble with the leading edge of the sail collapsing as boat speed built up at first but after a bit got rid of that issue by altering sheets and sailing angle.

The tip I got from @Jackdaw about the gybulator (sp?) was great as it held the lazy sheet up as designed! Thanks to the racing coach!!!

I continue to be amazed at how quickly the 216 accelerates and carries boat speed through lulls. My dingy days ( a lifetime ago) are reminiscent of the quick zoom zoom in light wind but don’t recall them holding their speed as much.

Actually its very close to windsurfing on Formula race gear where you get a significant puff, bear off a bit, get up to max boat speed for wind strength, head up a little as you see the lull coming, don’t move a muscle, coast through the lull, do it again. Didn’t think I could replicate the process with a 21.5 ft sailboat but it works!

Just curious if this is somewhat unique to the 216 design or even more pronounced in modern small boat setups?

 

[BobbyFunn]

Im lusting for an asymmetric spinaker, but need to work on getting the main and jib replaced first. The 216 was my first choice for utility vs price, but it wouldnt fit in an American 2 car garage.

Thats a sweet ride for a fraction of a seascape 18 price.

How long is your season up there and do you have crew?

 

[Hunter216]

Im lusting for an asymmetric spinaker, but need to work on getting the main and jib replaced first. The 216 was my first choice for utility vs price, but it wouldnt fit in an American 2 car garage.

Thats a sweet ride for a fraction of a seascape 18 price.

How long is your season up there and do you have crew?

The original owner modified the tongue on the trailer so it swings, so it fits in places stock ones don’t but I’m lucky to have a buddy that has spare space in one of his buildings so I can store it out of the weather (unseated though).

Yes quite a few $ less than that screamer. Interesting mini review attached
https://www.sailmagazine.com/boats/undersail-seascape-18
The mainsail twist mentioned is exactly what happens with modern windsurf race rigs. Before that innovation you had to either choose a sail for the gust strength or really grit your teeth and hope you didn’t get tether balled! With sail twist you can use a bigger sail and when the gust hits you rarely adjust stance or point of sail just the size of your smile as you accelerate!!!

The sailing season in Kingston Ontario could be from when the ice leaves until refreeze if you are a bit crazy but in a practical sense most boats are in the water from May - Oct. One of the things that attracted me to switch from full keel to self launch was the flexibility of when start and end occurred.

I quite often singlehand but love the cockpit space in the 216 and plan on having more outings with company.

 

[Hunter216]

Im lusting for an asymmetric spinaker,

You might be able to find a small used one for a few bucks? Rigging is very simple so not a lot of $ there if you’re an “enterprising” sort! I picked up a excellent deal on a slightly damaged Optimist for my kids at the end of a local race event. International competitor didn’t want to ship it home.

 

[chuckwayne]

Haven't sailed the H22 (yet) but it's fiberglass (good) but weighs 1000lbs more (Bad)

 

[Hunter216]

Haven't sailed the H22 (yet) but it's fiberglass (good) but weighs 1000lbs more (Bad)

I agree the fiberglass is a good upgrade but recent improvements in ACP repair made by @BobbyFunn, @JimInPB, @Shorefun and others have reduced my concern about the "reparability" of the construction.

I would also respectfully challenge your 1,000lbs heavier as the Hunter manuals have a 200lbs displacement difference but interestingly enough both Sailboatdata and Wikipedia have the increase as 349lbs.

 

[chuckwayne]

No apologies needed on the 1000lbs, that was the weight difference the Hunter dealer gave me when it first came out - just as I was shopping for my 216..... In any case, your numbers push the trailered weight up a class and beyond the towing capacity of the tow vehicle I had at the time - so I completely lost interest in the 22

 

[Hunter216]

No apologies needed on the 1000lbs, that was the weight difference the Hunter dealer gave me when it first came out - just as I was shopping for my 216..... In any case, your numbers push the trailered weight up a class and beyond the towing capacity of the tow vehicle I had at the time - so I completely lost interest in the 22

It’s pretty difficult to find info on the H22-2 (the original name they gave the remodelled 216). As you likely know Hunter already had used the H22 designation for the 22’ pocket cruiser so Google is easily fooled ;<) so I don’t know how many of them are out there, so you likely made the prudent choice. I get the tow vehicle limitation thing, pretty hard to justify buying a gas guzzler just to pull a boat around once in awhile!

Does your 216 have the asym kit? Just out of curiosity I tried to determine the actual sq footage of mine and can’t find it on the inter web.

 

[chuckwayne]

yes she does - I'll look and see if I have the size

 

[Hunter216]

So I’ve been out a few times in NOT light winds (15-20 knots) and am discovering what the limits are for the 216 in those conditions.

First of all quite a difference in sailing solo vs having extra people aboard; might seem obvious but here’s why. When solo I have had the “slack” sheet for the jib accidentally jamb (after I have let it go) in the cleat a few times during tacking ( not so nimble anymore so maybe I’m stepping on the sheet and re-cleating it again or something equally clumsy)

So while I’m busy sheeting in the jib on the correct side, ducking under the boom etc I find the bow of the boat really loaded up when I’m sort of on “low” side. Feels like I’m going over while I scramble to let the “upwind” sheet go. I am likely remembering flopping a dinghy on its side this way but the reality of overpowering the righting capacity of the 500 lb keel is pretty low, just doesn’t “feel” very good!!!!

On the other hand with a reef in the main and the jib sheeted correctly she just digs in her nose and powers upwind. Sailing solo I get some backwinding of the main in the lower third that I can’t seem to trim out but the sails are older so maybe that is part of it.

Downwind - broad reaching I been experimenting with jib out or furled with keel all the way down. Doesn’t seem to make too much of a speed difference and with it furled stability and visibility are improved. I’m thinking that with the keel all the way down it’s somewhat like a laser or similar daggerboard rig and there is too much “lifting” going on. Next I will try a few runs with the keel raised to see if I get some planing happening.

Any advice is welcomed to shorten the learning curve!

 

[Hunter216]

For my own curiosity I've been trying to determine the actual size of the asymmetrical spinnaker for the 216. Wikipedia indicates the 216 has a factory option that it is 200 sq ft or 19 sq m. While I was "Googling" for the answer I came upon the ORC website and assumed I could use their methodology to calculate the size of the sail that I have. I measured my Doyle sail using their technique:
https://www.orc.org/index.asp?id=17
and get the following values:

SHW - 464cm
SLU - 760cm
SLE - 610cm
SFL - 505cm

This is their formula to calculate:

Spinnakers: Symmetric and Asymmetric

The half width of any spinnaker shall be 75 % or more of the foot length.

The symmetric spinnaker shall be symmetric in shape, material and cut, about a line joining the head to the center of the foot. The symmetric spinnaker shall not have adjustable leech lines.

Any spinnaker not qualifying as symmetric shall be considered as asymmetric. Where the asymmetric spinnaker is tacked on the centerline, tack pennants of any length may be used.

Battens are not permitted on any spinnaker.

Spinnaker measurements include: leech length (SLU), luff length (SLE), half width (SHW) as the distance between midpoints on the luff and leech and the foot length (SFL). The asymmetric spinnaker luff ASL is then calculated as the average of the luff length (SLU) and the leech length (SLE) making it possible to use the same formula for spinnaker area:

Symmetric spinnaker area

Asymmetric spinnaker area

So to get ASL I add SLU(760) + SLE(610) together and divide by 2 to get the average value 685.

Area = ASL(685) - (SFL(505) + 4 - SHW(464)) / 6
Area = 6.85 - (4.41) / 6
Area = 2.44 / 6
Area = 0.407

Maybe I need to return to school as this answer doesn't make any sense????

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

A lot of information. Now time to go sailing and enjoy yourselves paticuraly at the end of the day telling a lot of stories over a grog of beer.

 

[Hunter216]

For my own curiosity I've been trying to determine the actual size of the asymmetrical spinnaker for the 216. Wikipedia indicates the 216 has a factory option that it is 200 sq ft or 19 sq m. While I was "Googling" for the answer I came upon the ORC website and assumed I could use their methodology to calculate the size of the sail that I have. I measured my Doyle sail using their technique:
https://www.orc.org/index.asp?id=17
and get the following values:

SHW - 464cm
SLU - 760cm
SLE - 610cm
SFL - 505cm

This is their formula to calculate:

Spinnakers: Symmetric and Asymmetric

The half width of any spinnaker shall be 75 % or more of the foot length.

The symmetric spinnaker shall be symmetric in shape, material and cut, about a line joining the head to the center of the foot. The symmetric spinnaker shall not have adjustable leech lines.

Any spinnaker not qualifying as symmetric shall be considered as asymmetric. Where the asymmetric spinnaker is tacked on the centerline, tack pennants of any length may be used.

Battens are not permitted on any spinnaker.

Spinnaker measurements include: leech length (SLU), luff length (SLE), half width (SHW) as the distance between midpoints on the luff and leech and the foot length (SFL). The asymmetric spinnaker luff ASL is then calculated as the average of the luff length (SLU) and the leech length (SLE) making it possible to use the same formula for spinnaker area:

Symmetric spinnaker area

Asymmetric spinnaker area

So to get ASL I add SLU(760) + SLE(610) together and divide by 2 to get the average value 685.

Area = ASL(685) - (SFL(505) + 4 - SHW(464)) / 6
Area = 6.85 - (4.41) / 6
Area = 2.44 / 6
Area = 0.407

Maybe I need to return to school as this answer doesn't make any sense????

I asked ORC for some help and their answer was quite simple, the operators that I thought were minus signs are actually asterisks * for multiplication.
Running the numbers through using the correct operators yields an area of 26.95 m2 or 290 sq ft, which is a lot bigger than what Wikipedia indicated. The original owner might have used a non-Hunter asym made by Doyle (although all the other parts on the boat for the spin are Hunter) or Wikipedia is wrong. In any case mystery solved.

 

[Hunter216]

I changed out both the jib and main for brand new ones yesterday and “think” I found that the efficiency of using the small amount of wind I had when I finally got sailing was improved. Given I had to drop the mast to change the jib (the 216 has the front stay imbedded in the jib material) it was not a quick task!

Although I have sailed since childhood the only brand new sails I ever had were windsurfing rigs, any of the boats I’ve owned had used sails on them that I just used until I sold the boat.

I’m curious about how others perceive how much “new” sails improves the boat or if it’s more the fact that I found myself really focused on keeping everything trimmed well that made the difference.

 

[Hunter216]

Out sailing today with the spin and someone shut the big fan off. Completely becalmed so after sitting patiently for 15 minutes for the power to come back on I gave up and motored back to the mooring. Of course as soon as I got the sail cover back on the breeze kicked in!

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Pulling boats out for Scouts. 97-98 degrees. Ouch

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Pulling boats out for Scouts. 97-98 degrees. Ouch

 

[Hunter216]

I have had a string of really nice weather days, however the wind strength has been light so I’ve been trying to convert to inside gybing my asymmetric spin in forgiving conditions.

With my previous full keel boat, ATN tacker and full symmetric I had gotten into a habit of only doing outside gybes as I had it down so that they were fairly consistent.

Old habits die hard and I just continued to rig for outside with the 216 but I thought I should heed advice from @Jackdaw who suggested that inside was better in certain situations.

Inside definitely feels quicker going from fully powered to fully powered IF you can pull the sail through fast enough. I’m finding the lazy sheet isn’t flowing through the standing blocks with ease as I gybe so sometimes I get hung up a bit. I think I need to flip the blocks to freewheel before I enter the gybe to see if that helps.