First time on the forum and glad to have the resource. I run a youth sailing program at my yacht club in San Diego. A 2005 H216 was recently donated to us and it's a perfect boat for us. As I was cleaning it up I discovered a crack on the starboard side deck running transverse through the aft bolt hole and extending down to the rub rail (see photo). Not sure what the yellowish stuff is - the previous owner had put some strips of non-skid tape on the outboard side of the bolts and you see some of that residue.
I've read the discussions about the cracks in the composite hull but this doesn't seem like the same thing. Is the deck/cabin/cockpit constructed of conventional fiberglass or the composite material. Anyone have a similar situation and how was it repaired? Thanks!
Hunter 216 deck crack at chain plate
- Thread starter Kent P
- Start date
can you get to the nuts on the backside of the u-bolt? If so, I'd look to see if the crack is visible there. If you are lucky, it is just a minor stress crack of the gel coat. But if you are unlucky....... the crack will be visible running through..... you might have to cut an access hole so you can get to the nuts on the backside.
I agree, this looks like a stress crack due to overloading than what was described as a ACP cracking due to bad plastic. In 2005, you have an ACP hull, not fiberglass. The boats are great for training, by the way. I will give you some advice, pending Crazy Dave weighing in with the authoritative word. The cracks that are troubling to H216 owners were due to out-of-spec plastic, not stress, and were most apparent when the hulls were exposed to extreme cold. Hunter did some recall work, but they stopped offering that for older boats, probably due to their recent bankruptcy and difficulty tracking down owners.
First, this excellent technical sheet from Marlow-Hunter should answer some of your repair / maintenance questions:
http://www.marlow-hunter.com/wp-content/themes/marlowhunter/export/Miscellaneous/ACP Repair.pdf - the Plexus adhesive is expensive, but you only use a little. You need to stop the stress by finding and relieving the source at the chainplate (perhaps a better backing plate, or better rig tuning). Drill a small through-deck hole at each end of the crack. V-out the crack and fill with multiple thin layers of plastic cement (not fiberglass epoxy). Buff and finish with white paint, if desired.
By the way, Sound Boatworks (thanks!) still has the manual for the H216 on-line: http://www.soundboatworksllc.com/Owners Manuals/Hunter 216 Owner's Manual.pdf
First, this excellent technical sheet from Marlow-Hunter should answer some of your repair / maintenance questions:
http://www.marlow-hunter.com/wp-content/themes/marlowhunter/export/Miscellaneous/ACP Repair.pdf - the Plexus adhesive is expensive, but you only use a little. You need to stop the stress by finding and relieving the source at the chainplate (perhaps a better backing plate, or better rig tuning). Drill a small through-deck hole at each end of the crack. V-out the crack and fill with multiple thin layers of plastic cement (not fiberglass epoxy). Buff and finish with white paint, if desired.
By the way, Sound Boatworks (thanks!) still has the manual for the H216 on-line: http://www.soundboatworksllc.com/Owners Manuals/Hunter 216 Owner's Manual.pdf
Thanks rgranger. The bolts are accessible but there is a fabric liner on the underside of the deck and what appears to be a fiberglass liner inside the hull which cover the crack area.
Take the backing plate and cut away in cloth under the plate... you need to get your eye ball on the hull material under that crack to ensure it is only a cosmetic stress crack of the gel coat. I believe you are going to be okay but you don't want the mast to fall down in a blow....
Thanks for the clarifications and links Parsons. The repair manual is perfect! I'm going to remove the chain plate and the interior fabric liner and examine from the inside. An expanded stainless plate to spread the loads is probably in order.
You shouldn't have to cut any of the headliner. If you unbolt that chain plate and any other deck hardware going through that panel you should be able to remove the whole thing. Worst case it is stuck up to the over head with spray adhesive. The 3M spray adhesive can from the hardware store will get in back in place after repairs are complete.
As rgranger said, getting a view of the underside will tell you if that crack is just superficial or goes all the way through the laminate. hopefully it isn't the latter, but its still repairable.
Funny thing is from the article listed above, it doe not mention anywhere that the ACP is coated with gelcoat, it only mentions paint for the topcoat. Spectrum Color does make a gel-paste ($25 for a 2oz jar) for 96-07 Hunters. It would worth confirming that they actually use gelcoat or not because the gelcoat paste kit is easier to use and just plain better than paint, IMO.
I was pretty happy to read in that article that the Plexus, which you use in fiberglass instead of resin, is available from Walmart. That makes this a potential $50 repair instead of a $150 repair.
I can see why the crack occurred... poor chain plate design. The force pulls up on the horizontal portion of the backing plate until it transfers the load to the vertical tang. If the deck were thicker this might not have happened, but a better deign would direct the load straight through the tang to the hull sides before lifting up on the deck. I could fix that, but it would involve either some welding to reinforce the backing plate or fabricating an extra connecting tang that would connect the center bolt to the top tang bolt.
As rgranger said, getting a view of the underside will tell you if that crack is just superficial or goes all the way through the laminate. hopefully it isn't the latter, but its still repairable.
Funny thing is from the article listed above, it doe not mention anywhere that the ACP is coated with gelcoat, it only mentions paint for the topcoat. Spectrum Color does make a gel-paste ($25 for a 2oz jar) for 96-07 Hunters. It would worth confirming that they actually use gelcoat or not because the gelcoat paste kit is easier to use and just plain better than paint, IMO.
I was pretty happy to read in that article that the Plexus, which you use in fiberglass instead of resin, is available from Walmart. That makes this a potential $50 repair instead of a $150 repair.
I can see why the crack occurred... poor chain plate design. The force pulls up on the horizontal portion of the backing plate until it transfers the load to the vertical tang. If the deck were thicker this might not have happened, but a better deign would direct the load straight through the tang to the hull sides before lifting up on the deck. I could fix that, but it would involve either some welding to reinforce the backing plate or fabricating an extra connecting tang that would connect the center bolt to the top tang bolt.
Poor design perhaps, but remember what this is on. These little daysailors do not have the same chain plate stresses as bigger boats. This backing plate depends on the deck and rigidity of the L-shaped plate to not bend under upward force. I did not see chainplate area cracks on my H216, or others that I have seen, or on the port side of this boat. I suspect this was overloaded in some way - perhaps over-tightening one of the shrouds or even a person falling against a shroud when boarding. This is all really light-weight stuff.
Agreed. I might do that even if the crack proves to be superficial. I'm used to dealing with bigger boats and I can't yet get my head wrapped around these lighter fittings. Thank you all for your input!
The flat plate will do little to solve the problem of the load not being transferred to the tang. I agree that the pull will be more distributed across the deck, but the point is to transfer the pull to the hull sides. Also, notice the crease midway through the horizontal tang surface? Your extended backing plate won't sit flush. A simple tang connecting the middle nut to the upper tang nut would do better to solve the problem. My crude freehand drawing shows this is yellow;
Let me chime in. the very first thing is to drill a 1/8 hole at the end of each crack and it appears to be from both ends to stop the crack from extending outward. Causes include if the bolt hole was not drilled large enough to allow the two threaded rods to go thru easily, hitting the side of the boat, cracking due to manufacture of the ACP material or simply overloading when tuning. As for what could have caused it, probably overloading . ONE THING NEEDS TO BE ASKED. In the photo of the deck to the right of the crack running to the rub rail, am I seeing indentations in the deck skin????????????????????? Please advise if that is the case and what caused that.
The material is plastic based and is about 3/16 inches thick I think. You can remove the chain plate to make repairs. Simply remove the top three nylon nuts only without touching the base bolted on the side. Gently remove the double pad eye. kClean off the caulking and alcohol is fine. NEVER USE ACETONE OR GOO GONE OR THINGS LIKE THAT AS IT WILL EAT UP PLASTICS. As for the crack to the rub rail, drill a 1/8 inch hole next to it but stay away from removing that rub rail.
Make sure when drilling only go thru that white skin only about 3/16 inches only or close to that. If you have a dremel, then drill a V in it all the way thru only to reveal the construction foam underneath. Lightly sand and fill in with Plexisis which I believe the site store on this forum sells. You can also substitute anything that welds plastics together for example Plastic Welder. Two part expoxy and fiberglass with resin/hardner will not work. In fact the resin/hardner will actually destroy the plastic skin.
Lightly sand the area and refill if you have any valleys. On vertical surfaces do a little at a time to prevent running down and making a mess. After each time lightly sand. You can spray paint with Krylon plastic paint but do mask off the area.
Ok guys help me with the specific number of the white paint. You can also clean off with alcohol..
When rebidding the pad eye, lightly and lightly sand the area where it will cover the skin only so you can have a good adhesion and in this application, I would use 5200 with the slow cure of seven days.
Let me know about those looking indentations of the deck if that is what they are or simply water stains. As for adding another brace inside, not necessary.
The material is plastic based and is about 3/16 inches thick I think. You can remove the chain plate to make repairs. Simply remove the top three nylon nuts only without touching the base bolted on the side. Gently remove the double pad eye. kClean off the caulking and alcohol is fine. NEVER USE ACETONE OR GOO GONE OR THINGS LIKE THAT AS IT WILL EAT UP PLASTICS. As for the crack to the rub rail, drill a 1/8 inch hole next to it but stay away from removing that rub rail.
Make sure when drilling only go thru that white skin only about 3/16 inches only or close to that. If you have a dremel, then drill a V in it all the way thru only to reveal the construction foam underneath. Lightly sand and fill in with Plexisis which I believe the site store on this forum sells. You can also substitute anything that welds plastics together for example Plastic Welder. Two part expoxy and fiberglass with resin/hardner will not work. In fact the resin/hardner will actually destroy the plastic skin.
Lightly sand the area and refill if you have any valleys. On vertical surfaces do a little at a time to prevent running down and making a mess. After each time lightly sand. You can spray paint with Krylon plastic paint but do mask off the area.
Ok guys help me with the specific number of the white paint. You can also clean off with alcohol..
When rebidding the pad eye, lightly and lightly sand the area where it will cover the skin only so you can have a good adhesion and in this application, I would use 5200 with the slow cure of seven days.
Let me know about those looking indentations of the deck if that is what they are or simply water stains. As for adding another brace inside, not necessary.
Marlow-Hunter's instructions call for Krylon 1501 or 2320 White. This is probably matched to the original external white. After a decade sitting outside and some abuse, I assure you that it will not match the current color of that boat. Personally, I never painted the small repairs I did on my boat after filling with the clear plastic weld, and it looked OK. It's a training daysailor, after all, not a wine-and-cheese cruiser you're trying to impress people with.
I used the Devcon brand plastic welder that I bought on-line at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Devcon-22045-Plastic-Welder-Dev-Tube/dp/B003NUGL9S Hunter's instructions says that it's also carried at WalMart, but I could not find it there. It's considerably cheaper than the Plexus brand, and comes in smaller 2-part tubes, which is all you will ever need.
I used the Devcon brand plastic welder that I bought on-line at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Devcon-22045-Plastic-Welder-Dev-Tube/dp/B003NUGL9S Hunter's instructions says that it's also carried at WalMart, but I could not find it there. It's considerably cheaper than the Plexus brand, and comes in smaller 2-part tubes, which is all you will ever need.
We know you can't repair APC with fiberglass.... there can't see how gelcoat would stick to it; its just a reformulated polyester resin.
Thanks again guys! In response to Crazy Dave's question about the indentations; no, those are not indentations - it is residue from 5 strips of non-skid tape that the previous owner applied. One of the covered the crack.
So, I'm going to assume that this entire boat is APC and not just the hull and will act according with regard to maintenance and repair materials and chemicals.
So, I'm going to assume that this entire boat is APC and not just the hull and will act according with regard to maintenance and repair materials and chemicals.
It s a white colored piece of plastic molded neither painted nor gel coated. Thank you Jackdaw for backing me up.
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Negative... The old myth that Gelcoat won't stick to epoxy resin or other substrates has been
debunked. It's published on the West Systems Website, actual sheer testing.
Practical tests have been done by individuals as well.
I'm not saying that this boat has Gelcoat, what I am saying is that Gelcoat
could stick to it if properly prepped. What I gather, and I've seen it before, is it is a pigmented resin which is actually cool. But if you read the repair document above, it recommends to fill minor scratches with polyester body filler... ergo polyester will stick to it. They just don't want you doing structural repairs to big cracks with epoxy or polyester resin in the laminate.
And saying you can't fix it with fiberglass isn't accurate... you can't fix
it with fiberglass/epoxy, or fiberglass/polyester resin; you DO fix it with
fiberglass cloth and 2-part methyl methacrylate (read document above).
At the end of the day, polyester resin, vinyl ester resin, epoxy, or what
have you, they are ALL plastics. And CrazyDave, you a completely wrong
about not using acetone as a cleaner and prep...
Cloudiver;
Unless you have worked on these boats or let me be specific, ACP, you have no idea. Acetone will melt plastics and this ACP material. Already proven that. As for fiberglass, hardner and resin it will not stick, tried that and saw it fall off even over scratched prepared surface. Also Harderner will attack ACP as I saw that. Epoxy two part will not work as I tried that too. As for fiberglass on ACP, yes you can use it impregnated with Plexisis or Plastic Welder but you have to learn how to do that. Tried gelcoat as well and if fell off too. .
When folks tell me I am wrong, sir, I have already tried it just to make sure to see what actually works and there have been times that Hunter came to me as how to fix. Why don't you get some of that material and work on it using the above materials and then report your findings and PM me as well once that has been done.
PS, I use to be an investigator which is one reason when reporting or advising, I have already done the investigation but go ahead and work on the material. Also, I was the largest small sailboat dealer for years not only selling and sailing, but also worked on them myself. I use to take the small Hunters and Catalinas to the Annapolis sailboat shows and one time or two introduced other brands as well
Unless you have worked on these boats or let me be specific, ACP, you have no idea. Acetone will melt plastics and this ACP material. Already proven that. As for fiberglass, hardner and resin it will not stick, tried that and saw it fall off even over scratched prepared surface. Also Harderner will attack ACP as I saw that. Epoxy two part will not work as I tried that too. As for fiberglass on ACP, yes you can use it impregnated with Plexisis or Plastic Welder but you have to learn how to do that. Tried gelcoat as well and if fell off too. .
When folks tell me I am wrong, sir, I have already tried it just to make sure to see what actually works and there have been times that Hunter came to me as how to fix. Why don't you get some of that material and work on it using the above materials and then report your findings and PM me as well once that has been done.
PS, I use to be an investigator which is one reason when reporting or advising, I have already done the investigation but go ahead and work on the material. Also, I was the largest small sailboat dealer for years not only selling and sailing, but also worked on them myself. I use to take the small Hunters and Catalinas to the Annapolis sailboat shows and one time or two introduced other brands as well
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Dave, I never said anything about resins definitively sticking to ACP, only that the HUNTER publish guidance listed above clearly states that for minor gouges polyester body filler would do the trick. If you tried it and it fell off, then fine.... you never mentioned that you yourself had attempted any repairs and disproved the factory guidance. You always introduce yourself as a 'Hunter Dealer for years', but I don't seem to recall you also mentioning 'ignore this factory guidance because I tested it and I know it doesn't work'... When you establish your relationship with Hunter it is implied that would support any verified published factory guidance, unless you directly state otherwise.
You need to get off your high horse and accept that there are people out there who have worked with these types of materials before and a wide range of 'plastics' used within the scope of the marine industry. I've repaired numerous plastics besides GRP boats, particularly holed or ripped 'plastic' kayaks and canoes. I've used adhesives and methods of mechanical plastic 'welding'. I don't remember every chemical compound but I can tell you that yes, you can glue delrin together as well as king-starboard, but the adhesives are really funky stuff and very expensive. The problem with the average DIY repair is a general lack of knowledge when it comes to the difference between 'chemical bonding' and 'mechanical adhesion'.
Yes, I've used Plexus before, the brand name. I've also used Devcon Plastic Welder but not packaged the way it is for consumer use. But neither product I used on a Hunter ACP boat. You are completely wrong about the use of acetone... You seem to not get the concept of 'priming' in plastics repair, but I'm certain you've primed and glued numerous PVC fittings so I don't see how you can't seem make the connection. Yes, acetone will 'melt' plastics... that's the point! The plastic substrate won't instantly dissolve (some foams certainly will) but the process is intended to clean and soften the plastic to promote a CHEMICAL bond, not mechanical adhesion. The flash point of acetone is too high to sit on the plastic surface long enough to destroy it. MEK is a better 'primer', but more risk and very nasty to work with. Maybe if you had cleaned/primed with acetone prior to using the bondo and gelcoat that you say failed on your previous attempts to repair Hunter ACP boats then it might have stuck...
I never said definitively that bondo nor gelcoat would stick, but the factory guidance directly states that for surface finishing it will. So its real simple, just say the factory guidance is wrong... better way to start the conversation. It wouldn't be the first time that a factory puts about bad info, I am completely in agreement that it happens (often).