I just bought a 1988 Hunter 30 and boy, I can't wait to raise the sail. Until then, I knew she had some problems to be addressed. First is the lower port spreader base seams to be broken, then the rudder is holding some water, finally there is oilcanning on the hull under the shower pan. The surveyor and a boat yard told me that the oilcanning is normal on this boat and can be reinforced. I have the boat out now for paint, spreader, and rudder, but the yard is really concerned about how thin the fiberglass seems behind the keel, about 4 feet in lenght and running from just below waterline to the same point on the other waterline. They think that the hull has delaminated - the hull flexes with only hand strength. I'm not sure anything is really wrong considering it's consistant all the way accross the boat. Before he starts grinding in to see what might be wrong, does anyone have any experience with a weakened or damaged hull? Or does this sound pretty normal?
hull concern
- Thread starter Timbo3
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Tim, I'm puzzled by your surveyor's...
statement that oil canning is normal on this boat. If they mean by oil canning, that you can push in on the hull in places, sounds to me like the surveyor was working for the seller and not you. I would consider this condition abnormal. Your surveyor should have pointed out to you the seriousness of the problems and an estimate of the repair before accepting the boat's condition. Most any fiberglass damage can be repaired. Maybe the seller made you a great deal and that the rudder and hull repair is worth the discounted price. If it were me I would have kept looking for a boat in better condition. Terry
statement that oil canning is normal on this boat. If they mean by oil canning, that you can push in on the hull in places, sounds to me like the surveyor was working for the seller and not you. I would consider this condition abnormal. Your surveyor should have pointed out to you the seriousness of the problems and an estimate of the repair before accepting the boat's condition. Most any fiberglass damage can be repaired. Maybe the seller made you a great deal and that the rudder and hull repair is worth the discounted price. If it were me I would have kept looking for a boat in better condition. Terry
oilcanning
The oilcanning ( a dent that comes out after it's out of the water for a couple of days) is under the shower pan, apparently because Hunter did not put much reinforcement there. A boat yard not related to the surveyor said he's seen it before, don't be concerned and can be repaired at some point by removing the shower pan and glassing in some form of a rib. I'll continue to believe I negotiated a decent deal on this boat. Even with what I anticipate for the high dollar repairs, the money spent on the boat is equal to its rated mid value. Unless, of course, this weak hull problem is really a problem. . . then I might be throwing some money in the water. What are the causes of a weakened hull? It just seams strange to me that the weekness is so even accross the boat. . . leads me to believe the boat was built this way.
The oilcanning ( a dent that comes out after it's out of the water for a couple of days) is under the shower pan, apparently because Hunter did not put much reinforcement there. A boat yard not related to the surveyor said he's seen it before, don't be concerned and can be repaired at some point by removing the shower pan and glassing in some form of a rib. I'll continue to believe I negotiated a decent deal on this boat. Even with what I anticipate for the high dollar repairs, the money spent on the boat is equal to its rated mid value. Unless, of course, this weak hull problem is really a problem. . . then I might be throwing some money in the water. What are the causes of a weakened hull? It just seams strange to me that the weekness is so even accross the boat. . . leads me to believe the boat was built this way.
yes please, Paul
Paul, thanks, I would like to know. . . I wonder if my boat's at the same place now. I'm still curious if this is a major concern or can be overlooked or wait a couple of years.
Paul, thanks, I would like to know. . . I wonder if my boat's at the same place now. I'm still curious if this is a major concern or can be overlooked or wait a couple of years.
Tarpon repair shop
I believe these are the people, Tim http://www.americanboatworks.com/pages/783345/index.htm good luck, ask them about redoing a rudder - cutting the bottom off and adding to the back edge. They may remember it. I am very happy with their work.
I believe these are the people, Tim http://www.americanboatworks.com/pages/783345/index.htm good luck, ask them about redoing a rudder - cutting the bottom off and adding to the back edge. They may remember it. I am very happy with their work.
Rudder
Before you rebuild your old rudder you may want to go to the ships store on this site and look up rudders. Yours will not be listed but you can probably get a new one made up for the cost of repairing your old rudder. It will perform better based upon others experience and guaranteed for life. Worth the inquiry.
Before you rebuild your old rudder you may want to go to the ships store on this site and look up rudders. Yours will not be listed but you can probably get a new one made up for the cost of repairing your old rudder. It will perform better based upon others experience and guaranteed for life. Worth the inquiry.
Great Boat
Tim, I have an 88 30 that I completely rebuilt after a grounding accident. The hull is relatively lightly built with the beef coming in the interior grid. This is pretty standard of modern mass production boats. If the hull flexes a little because of local pressure from the support stands then I suspect that this is normal. If you really can flex it by hand pressure then something is not right. When you start talk about reinforcing by taking out part of the grid then you are into serious work and significant expensive if you are going to hire it done. One way to stiffen up the area near the head pan might be to remove some of the liner inside the head cabinet and tie the step in the liner to the bottom with a few layers of matt and roving. On the galley side access under the stove area with a similar reinforcing. The grid is over 1" thick in highly stressed areas and 1/8" in others. I think the 30 is a great boat. Send me your number and the next time I am up the Anclote River I will give you a call and show you what might be.
Tim, I have an 88 30 that I completely rebuilt after a grounding accident. The hull is relatively lightly built with the beef coming in the interior grid. This is pretty standard of modern mass production boats. If the hull flexes a little because of local pressure from the support stands then I suspect that this is normal. If you really can flex it by hand pressure then something is not right. When you start talk about reinforcing by taking out part of the grid then you are into serious work and significant expensive if you are going to hire it done. One way to stiffen up the area near the head pan might be to remove some of the liner inside the head cabinet and tie the step in the liner to the bottom with a few layers of matt and roving. On the galley side access under the stove area with a similar reinforcing. The grid is over 1" thick in highly stressed areas and 1/8" in others. I think the 30 is a great boat. Send me your number and the next time I am up the Anclote River I will give you a call and show you what might be.
closer inspection
Thanks for the input folks. Some interesting notes. . . The yard has the boat back on the slings so they could sandblast the keel and rudder, which has put the hull material against the grid and the hull now seems a lot more solid other than the depression areas between the grid. The stands distorted the bottom. Which leads to the next question. Thanks for the grid explanation - now I can see a lot more of what's going on. The yard is going to pull the head to inspect between the grid and the hull. While they're down there they'll try to reinforce the hull material in an attempt to stop the oilcanning between the grid sections. The question is whether the grid is supposed to be bonded to the hull or not? Or does the grid just lay against the hull to provide the structural support? I'll try to take some digital pics and post them - not sure if it will really show the indentations, especially back on the stands. With regard to the rudder, it's finally dry, shows some poor former repairs, and they'll take care of that today.
Thanks for the input folks. Some interesting notes. . . The yard has the boat back on the slings so they could sandblast the keel and rudder, which has put the hull material against the grid and the hull now seems a lot more solid other than the depression areas between the grid. The stands distorted the bottom. Which leads to the next question. Thanks for the grid explanation - now I can see a lot more of what's going on. The yard is going to pull the head to inspect between the grid and the hull. While they're down there they'll try to reinforce the hull material in an attempt to stop the oilcanning between the grid sections. The question is whether the grid is supposed to be bonded to the hull or not? Or does the grid just lay against the hull to provide the structural support? I'll try to take some digital pics and post them - not sure if it will really show the indentations, especially back on the stands. With regard to the rudder, it's finally dry, shows some poor former repairs, and they'll take care of that today.
Bondo is the name of the game
Tim, they smear some bondo like material at various locations on the grid and they cut the grid away in special sections (keel, shaft log, strut, ect) and drop it in place. The Bondo is supposed to tie the two together and where they have cut the grid away they hand glass the two together. Removing the head is not going to expose anything but the liner that the head is mounted to. You could cut a hole that might be covered by the head base just for looking around or you could look in through the holes in the grid in the front of the engine compartment.
Tim, they smear some bondo like material at various locations on the grid and they cut the grid away in special sections (keel, shaft log, strut, ect) and drop it in place. The Bondo is supposed to tie the two together and where they have cut the grid away they hand glass the two together. Removing the head is not going to expose anything but the liner that the head is mounted to. You could cut a hole that might be covered by the head base just for looking around or you could look in through the holes in the grid in the front of the engine compartment.
interesting
I wonder if, with the bondo type adhesive deteriorated, the structural integrity of the hull is diminished creating a safety hazard? Or is this just a stiffness issue? I'll find out on Friday what they found today.
I wonder if, with the bondo type adhesive deteriorated, the structural integrity of the hull is diminished creating a safety hazard? Or is this just a stiffness issue? I'll find out on Friday what they found today.
pictures
Well, it turns out it's a bit difficult to see the indentations in these pics. Look between the stand and the through hull, where the sling deposited a stripe of slime. This is the grid section under the head and one section forward of that - probably under the nav station. No need to mention how bad the paint and the keel fairing looks - it's all getting repaired.
Well, it turns out it's a bit difficult to see the indentations in these pics. Look between the stand and the through hull, where the sling deposited a stripe of slime. This is the grid section under the head and one section forward of that - probably under the nav station. No need to mention how bad the paint and the keel fairing looks - it's all getting repaired.
Is the deflection from the stand or
Is the deflection from sitting on the stand or was it there before? I have seen similar deflections when storing a boat over the winter in Wisc. If it is from the stand I would not worry about it at all. Once in the water it will return to normal.
Is the deflection from sitting on the stand or was it there before? I have seen similar deflections when storing a boat over the winter in Wisc. If it is from the stand I would not worry about it at all. Once in the water it will return to normal.
re Hull Flexure Issue
Tim - The yard's concern about hull flexure "with hand strength" is very important for a boat this size and I think you should be more concerned. Other red flags are the yard's concern about how thin the hull is aft of the keel and the lack of bonding of the pan to the hull. A tad bit of hull flexure is allowable (that is why engine and shaft alignment is done a few days after the boat has been in the water) but the flexure should not be visible. And flexure caused by hand pressure is a real red flag! Terry's puzzlement is well founded based on what you've stated so far. The pan is not just something to support the sole, it's function is structural and it had better be totally attached to the hull. According to Hunter, the pan is a structural grid. Without it being attached it cannot do it's job. If the hull is as thin and flexes as easy as the yard states, aft of the keel, I'd be very concerned about grounding on something sold. When the forward part of the keel strikes a solid object the aft end of the keel will push up into the hull - the flexible and thin section the yard is concerned about. Who selected and hired the surveyor? (Terry's question that was never answered) The H30 is a nice boat but don't get smitten by it's beauty and your "good deal"! Also, I changed heo topic relevancy from "General" to H30.
Tim - The yard's concern about hull flexure "with hand strength" is very important for a boat this size and I think you should be more concerned. Other red flags are the yard's concern about how thin the hull is aft of the keel and the lack of bonding of the pan to the hull. A tad bit of hull flexure is allowable (that is why engine and shaft alignment is done a few days after the boat has been in the water) but the flexure should not be visible. And flexure caused by hand pressure is a real red flag! Terry's puzzlement is well founded based on what you've stated so far. The pan is not just something to support the sole, it's function is structural and it had better be totally attached to the hull. According to Hunter, the pan is a structural grid. Without it being attached it cannot do it's job. If the hull is as thin and flexes as easy as the yard states, aft of the keel, I'd be very concerned about grounding on something sold. When the forward part of the keel strikes a solid object the aft end of the keel will push up into the hull - the flexible and thin section the yard is concerned about. Who selected and hired the surveyor? (Terry's question that was never answered) The H30 is a nice boat but don't get smitten by it's beauty and your "good deal"! Also, I changed heo topic relevancy from "General" to H30.
that is not oil canning. its a dent.
We have to get our discription correct here. Oil canning is a condition that occurs when the hull moves in and out as does the end of and old time oil can. The term describes motion you can see as the bost moves thur the water. your boat my have been chocked improperly with too much weight on a stand, then left that way for a long time. Stands should be set under a bulkhead. Not just anywhere. I would bet the thickness of the glass is not an issue here. i have seen lots of boats do this in the yard and come back to the correct shape in the water. I have also seen boats sitting on the keel with the entire bottom flexing with all the weight on the keel. Clean it up, look for cracks or fractures in the glass if you dont see anything paint it and launch it and see how it looks in a few weeks after it sets. Boats are made to float not to sit on stands in the yard. Lots of power boats do the same thing on trailers.
We have to get our discription correct here. Oil canning is a condition that occurs when the hull moves in and out as does the end of and old time oil can. The term describes motion you can see as the bost moves thur the water. your boat my have been chocked improperly with too much weight on a stand, then left that way for a long time. Stands should be set under a bulkhead. Not just anywhere. I would bet the thickness of the glass is not an issue here. i have seen lots of boats do this in the yard and come back to the correct shape in the water. I have also seen boats sitting on the keel with the entire bottom flexing with all the weight on the keel. Clean it up, look for cracks or fractures in the glass if you dont see anything paint it and launch it and see how it looks in a few weeks after it sets. Boats are made to float not to sit on stands in the yard. Lots of power boats do the same thing on trailers.
Hull flexing
I think I'd have to agree with John Nantz that flexing the outer slin of the hull with hand pressure points to some kind of delamination in that area. I'd hire another surveyor go back over the areas in question to try to assess if perhaps the grid is detached from the hull in that area. Boats that are lifted out of the water in slings aren't typically subjected to abnormal loadings, however many marinas are now moving boats around using hydraulic lifting equipment with four pads picking up the boat. These could apply unusual loads that might conceivably cause separation between the hull and its grid system.
I think I'd have to agree with John Nantz that flexing the outer slin of the hull with hand pressure points to some kind of delamination in that area. I'd hire another surveyor go back over the areas in question to try to assess if perhaps the grid is detached from the hull in that area. Boats that are lifted out of the water in slings aren't typically subjected to abnormal loadings, however many marinas are now moving boats around using hydraulic lifting equipment with four pads picking up the boat. These could apply unusual loads that might conceivably cause separation between the hull and its grid system.
reply to questions
Sorry for any confusion. . . I'm learning as I go here. Hobie Cats and Lasers are much easier to buy/sell/maintain. Yes, I'd agree, it's a dent, but the dent comes out 60% when out of the water for a day or two - - water pressure pushes it in. When in a sling, the hull seems tight against the grid and the hull sounds and feels really solid to the fist. When on the stands, the hull, in the section behind the keel from galley to head, has a bit of a vibration to it when you pound on it and you can see it move when you push against it. . . not like paper, with effort, but it moves. Now that I better understand the construction, I can see for myself that the hull and grid apear to be separated in that section. If we can confirm that this is the case, I wonder how it can be repaired effectively and efficiently. The surveyor was recommended by my broker, the boat was listed with another broker an hour apart. My broker recommended this guy because he is one of the last in the area who will go up the mast. . . and I'm glad he did or we would have missed the spreader base. The boat was in the slings when surveyed and even this boat yard said the survey is extremely detailed. The boat has been purchased - she's all mine. The yard has yet to get in there to see what's going on, if they can see at all. I am extremely concerned about safety, that's why I'm here and that's why I'm asking the yard to investigate what they can. On one end, it's a bit difficult to hear that your new boat might be junk after going to the time and expense to make sure it's not. I used this site for additional advise and recommendations during the purchase process. On the other end is the well being of myself and anyone anyone might rely on her ability to stay afloat. Then I could always go back to small boats.
Sorry for any confusion. . . I'm learning as I go here. Hobie Cats and Lasers are much easier to buy/sell/maintain. Yes, I'd agree, it's a dent, but the dent comes out 60% when out of the water for a day or two - - water pressure pushes it in. When in a sling, the hull seems tight against the grid and the hull sounds and feels really solid to the fist. When on the stands, the hull, in the section behind the keel from galley to head, has a bit of a vibration to it when you pound on it and you can see it move when you push against it. . . not like paper, with effort, but it moves. Now that I better understand the construction, I can see for myself that the hull and grid apear to be separated in that section. If we can confirm that this is the case, I wonder how it can be repaired effectively and efficiently. The surveyor was recommended by my broker, the boat was listed with another broker an hour apart. My broker recommended this guy because he is one of the last in the area who will go up the mast. . . and I'm glad he did or we would have missed the spreader base. The boat was in the slings when surveyed and even this boat yard said the survey is extremely detailed. The boat has been purchased - she's all mine. The yard has yet to get in there to see what's going on, if they can see at all. I am extremely concerned about safety, that's why I'm here and that's why I'm asking the yard to investigate what they can. On one end, it's a bit difficult to hear that your new boat might be junk after going to the time and expense to make sure it's not. I used this site for additional advise and recommendations during the purchase process. On the other end is the well being of myself and anyone anyone might rely on her ability to stay afloat. Then I could always go back to small boats.
Get another opinion
Tim, please give the American Boat Works a call. They may have seen the problem you are looking at before. They give free estimates and are in Tarpon Springs. And another opinion could a the very least confirm what you think it is.
Tim, please give the American Boat Works a call. They may have seen the problem you are looking at before. They give free estimates and are in Tarpon Springs. And another opinion could a the very least confirm what you think it is.
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