How would you handle this situation?

[Don Guillette]

As a lead in --- a numbers of years ago I particpated in the Long Beach to Dana Point race. How I came to be on the boat was I felt I'd learn more about sail trim if I raced. Unfortunately, I couldn't get a spot on top finishing boats because they wanted experience -- how was I supposed to get experiencet if I couldn't get on a boat? Anyway, I saw a notice at WM for a pick up crew and joined them. I don't think we ever finished higher than last and nobody really knew what they were doing from a sail trim standpoint but I didn't know that at the time.

Jumping ahead to my last race on the boat. You head straight out of Long Beach and then turn down hill to Dana Point. Actually, the race is so simple (in hindsight) that you could put a broom stick and a bed sheet on a 55 Gal drum and sail the race!! The trouble starts when we turn to go down wind. I notice other boats are giving the area a wide berth but not us and because of the shoaling and waves the skipper damm near turned the boat over on its side --twice. His new spinnaker ripped and that's what saved us.

As we neared Dana Point I noticed we were heading toward Oceanside!! I didn't know a lot about sail trim but I knew where Dana Point was located. A argument starts with most of the crew siding with the skipper. We were so far behind that it was as if the rest of the fleet left the day before so there were no boats to follow!! As we passed Dana Point, I asked the skipper what harbor he thought that might be with all the masts on our port side!!

The plan was to stay over night and return the next day but our wives were meeting us for dinner. I decided I'd had enough of this boat and left after dinner and never sailed with them again.

Now, to the question. Suppose you're crew and it obvious the skipper is making a bad decision, what do you do? It could be regarding sail trim, which is nothing, or a dangerous situation. If I'm invited on the boat to help improve sail trim I will make a suggestion but otherwise it's his boat and he can trim it anyway he wants. Suppose it's the situation I described above --- have you ever been in a situation where you question the skippers decision and how did you handle it?

 

[GeorgiaBII]

Now that is a tough one. Honestly if it's not life threatening I may offer an opinion but not pursue it. Life threatening I would push as hard as necessary.

 

[jimg]

I would have done the same as you. Actually, having done that race many times, and knowing that the next port is 30 miles further down the coast, I'm afraid I would have been a lot more vocal!

 

[Don Guillette]

I wonder if this was life threating? I was standing in the hatchway when they deployed the spinnaker. The next thing I know is I'm looking straight down at the water and the skipper is madly spinning the wheel -- to no avail since the rudder is out of the water. Somehow the boat rights itself and then promptly goes over the other side and I'm looking down at the water again. I don't know how we avoided someone going in the water.

Here's what upset me the most. After things settled down, because the sail ripped in half, no one could explain what had happened -- lest of all the skipper!! I didn't know what happened either but I knew enough to wonder why I was on thiat boat.

 

[Don Guillette]

Jimg: This boat was the amateur hour and I was one of the amateurs. They almost convinced me I was wrong. As soon as the viewing angle to actually see Dana Point, which is tucked behind the point, and all the masts were visable I almost wasn't sure.

Before we docked the skipper ask all the crew if they'd be interested in doing the Newport to Ensenada Race!!! I thought "yea, sure I would". No telling where we'd have ended up -- maybe Peru!!

Here's the bottom line " a man (skipper) doesn't know what he doesn't know" and that's what make some sailors (and humans) dangerous.

 

[Merlin Clark]

I'd take myself out of the situation anyway and immediately if the "skipper" was dangerous. Call the committee boat and demand a ride to the beach.
There are some out there that let thier competitive spirit overshadow any common sense they should be exercising. The true tragedy is when they get someone else hurt or killed.

 

[Calif. Ted]

I was crewing for a mate once and everything was going along fine, then he said "Let's come about".
So I stood facing forward and replied "ready about", he started slowly dropping off, at first I thought maybe he wants to get a little more steerage, but he kept going. I turned saying "Hey ! WE ARE GYBING!" he just looked at me so I started hauling the main ASAP and we finished the gybe.
So I asked "So how come we gybed?" He said "I thought it would be faster"
I tried explaining that every other time he said "come about" we tacked and that was what I expected from common usage. I'm not sure he thought my explaination made sense.
"The captain may not be right, but he's never wrong"

 

[victorhoisington]

My wife still remembers her first day on our then, new to us, Hunter 25, Mothers day, beautiful weather, perfect sail until the knockdown. Then all she saw was green water through an open portal and thought her boat was going to sink. We handled it better than most of the boats out that day - no damage and nobody hurt or wet but it took me 2 years to regain her full confidence.

Its hard, when we are newbies to sailing, we just want to get on the water, we don't realize the difference between an experienced skipper and one just starting out and even then different skippers have good and bad days, Each trip we learn something new. Always go prepared for the worst (weather, situations, etc.), then when the skipper makes a bonehead decision (I've made plenty), your preparation will cover the event and you'll all (hopefully) be able to laugh about it later.

 

[Don Guillette]

victorhoisington: Dirty Harry said it best " a man's (skipper) got to know his limitations".

 

[MLampner]

As that newbie captain I ask along more experienced sailors, much of the time its a big help, but then some times the debate can ensue. As the rocks get closer or the sand bar, if they are still debating whether to tack or gybe I rely on my gut.

We're still afloat so I guess I have guessed right most of the time or either answer was right.

 

[weinie]

I've only owned my boat for 1 1/2 years. The hard part for me would be trying to convince myself that I was right and tnat I should speak up. Being new to sailing, I would tend to doubt myself and even if I didn't I might not feel cocky enough to assert myself to someone who supposedly knows the ropes.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Calmly...

 

[Don Guillette]

mlampner/weinie: When a debate starts regarding impending danger, shortly into the debate someone has to digest the info offered and make a decision --- right or wrong. No decision is not an option. Weinie, in the situation I described all of us were newbies and none of us knew what to do. To this day it makes me nervous when I think about it because one of us (maybe me) could have easily been hurt.

I've probably been on more boats in So Ca and the Phoenix area than the average bear. Mostly they're mates that have purchased my book and chart and after digesting the material they want to learn more about sail trim and want to get 100% out of their boats.

On a few RARE ocassions I've been asked on board and immediately the skipper starts telling me what sail trim is all about. At that point I wonder why he asked me on board in the first place!! It then goes like this --- suppose I was talking to someone about THEIR (not mine) career field. Within 2 to 3 minutes they'd know if I was full of crap or not. Sort of like trying to go head to head with RichH, Joe from San Diego or Alan (I wonder where he is these days?). At that point I just ask the skipper to cast off, assume a closehaul heading, get the boat up to full speed and then tack the boat, and let's see what he's got. It doesn't take long to figure out if he knowns his onions or not. In one case in Ventura, Ca it was just a waste of my time as he kept arguing with me. I asked this skipper to explain to me WHY he's making a particular sail trim adjustment and WHAT the setting is for each sail trim control on the main and jib for our point of sail and wind condition. He couldn't and kept arguing with me. Talk is not a substitute for ability. I told him to drop me back at the dock.

The above instances are very rare. I have met the most wonderful humans beings through sailing (and RV'ing). They go above and beyond to make me feel welcome on their boats and at sail trim presentation. They ask what I prefer for food and drink -- a peanut butter & jelly sandwich and a Sprite will surfice but the wives always prepare something special. Everyone tries to pay me at the end of the day and I don't accept their money. I tell them up front in the initial conversation that no money is involved but they seem to forget that part of the conversation.

Weinie/mlampner, there's one last thing I get straight and right up front during the initial converstion and that is if something/anything goes wrong during the sail I'm taking over. No ands or buts about it. Everyone has agreed to that stipulation (if they didn't agree I've got better things to do with my time -- and life). I added that item after the Ventura, Ca situation!!

The big problem is when a person is a guest on a boat and things start to go bad. I'm not sure how I'd handle the situation -- that's why I asked the question. It would probably depend on how serious it was.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

Let's talk the bigger picture

As a lead in --- a numbers of years ago . . . .

have you ever been in a situation where you question the skippers decision and how did you handle it?

If we can, can we use this forum and your guidance to ask, not about our skipper on a small boat if you are crew, but what if you are a passenger on a cruise ship and see a distress call that seems to go unanswered?

If I mouth off on a sailboat, I get what, dis-invited, a knuckle sandwich, charged with disorderly conduct (if anyone knew the jurisdiction that is). But raise hell on a cruis ship and I might get roughed up (post 9-11, you know), put in the brig, get taken away under the so called Patriot Act and never be seen again?

I completely side with the couple who did their best to get aid to the Panamanian fishermen. But dang, you and I are still well off to have supper again with our dear wives. Two of the fishermen in the cruiseship case never will.

 

[weinie]

Well put Don.

I often sail with a couple of older gents from the marina who I believe have had plenty of experience, at least more than myself. I'm sure if I sail with these guys long enough, eventually some sort of disagreement may ensue, possibly a life threatening one. Come to think of it, those guys were involved in a well publicized MOB incident a year or so ago, so perhaps it is inevitable.

A few books and movies come to mind where the sailor has to question the ability of a commanding officer. I suppose, however, that knowing the outcome of the event that transpires is the only way of determining whether the correct decision was made or not. Capts. Queeg and Gene Hackman come to mind.

In the meantime, Don, I am grateful to you for all that I have learned about sail trim on this forum and I hope i apply it on the water as you have taught it. In lieu of my wife's cooking (which I don't think you'd enjoy) and in light of the previous paragraph, I invite you to join me for a tin of strawberries from the officer's mess on my boat anytime. And no, you wouldn't have to give trim advice, but I have a feeling you would enjoy doing it anyway!

 

[Don Guillette]

Many years ago I learned not give sail trim advise when I'm a guest on someones boat and we're just out for a day on the water. I only give it when asked and then reluctantly because my wife gives me "that look" which started the minute we got in the car to drive to the marina. It start with "shut up about the sail trim crap and let the guy sail the boat the way the way he wants to". I ask "suppose he asks me a question, what am I suppose to say" and she says "act dumb like you are some times!!".

Same thing happens on my boat. It's "shut up about sail trim because our friends don't care about it. Just play with the controls by yourself and don't involve our guests". I don't know how she has all this insight into what people like and dislike. I guess woman just know that stuff.

Usually I keep one eye on the guests and the other eye on the sails. Sometime I purposely just let the sails luff all over the place and I keep talking to the folks like nothing happened. My wife then says I did it on purpose -- who me?