This question is for Don Guillette. What controls can I tweak to get my Santana 20 to sail higher? Thanks in advance! Regards; Ace
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Point Higher
More Mast Rake-Changes center of effort = point higher. Tighten genoa and main halyard and this will move draft forward = point higher. That's what I know. Anyone else want to add to this?
More Mast Rake-Changes center of effort = point higher. Tighten genoa and main halyard and this will move draft forward = point higher. That's what I know. Anyone else want to add to this?
Don's right on
He nailed this one boat set up is huge. Allot of it depends on the wind range. In Light air we tend to foot a little and sail more for speed but in the right direction. I will have light tension on the head sail since I want a full sail with the draft a little aft of 40%. In medium air we sail high with the tell tails all streaming aft. I will then head up a little to get the inside tell tail to lift 45 degree's and keep an eye on speed and ride this for a little and when boat speed drops off I will head down some more to build up speed. I will do this all the way up the course. Every bit I can get the boat up the ladder the better. I will have the halyard tension at a medium setting If I am sailing with Dacron Sail's I want the Draft of the Head sail to be right at 40%. I will have the sheet car set to where all the tell tail's are stremming aft. If when driving I find I need to turn the wheel just a few degree's and the tell tail's start to lift up or drop down then I have the Jib sheet to tight and I will let the sheet out just 1 inch or 2. What I am after is to have a little more movement with the wheel to keep the boat in the grove and sailing fast. With the sheet to tight it becomes real hard to keep the boat in the grove. I heavy we will move the sheet car back a hole or 2 for the head sail. This will let the top of the head sail allow to spill of some air. I will also really crank in the jib sheet and have a very flat sail. I will have the blade up for me it is a 108% but for most it will be a 110%. I will also have allot of halyard tension. We want to more the draft of the head sail to 40 %. I will also crank on the back stay to get the forstay as tight as possible. This allow the head sail to be very flat. I will then tighten the out haul on the main all the way out and crank on some cunning ham to move the draft of the sail forward. Ideal draft for the main would be 50% aft of the mast. We need this because we have turbulance from the mast it'self. I then drive from the rail with a person sitting with the traveler line in the hand and we will drop the traveler a few inches in the puff's. This allow's the boat to stay on it's feet with getting allot of drive from the head sail. We will also have at times a very big bubble in the mainsail. This is ok because we are getting allot of drive from the head sail. On the sail's draft postion it is kinda like a jet as Don suggest. On Jet's that sail slower and need allot of Lift from the wings it will have a very thick wing section. It needs this for maxium lift all the time. On Jet's where all they do is go fast then a thinner wing section is needed because it is going allot faster and get's it's lift from the speed. Same thing with a sail as the wind range changes the sail shape needs to change. Cliff
He nailed this one boat set up is huge. Allot of it depends on the wind range. In Light air we tend to foot a little and sail more for speed but in the right direction. I will have light tension on the head sail since I want a full sail with the draft a little aft of 40%. In medium air we sail high with the tell tails all streaming aft. I will then head up a little to get the inside tell tail to lift 45 degree's and keep an eye on speed and ride this for a little and when boat speed drops off I will head down some more to build up speed. I will do this all the way up the course. Every bit I can get the boat up the ladder the better. I will have the halyard tension at a medium setting If I am sailing with Dacron Sail's I want the Draft of the Head sail to be right at 40%. I will have the sheet car set to where all the tell tail's are stremming aft. If when driving I find I need to turn the wheel just a few degree's and the tell tail's start to lift up or drop down then I have the Jib sheet to tight and I will let the sheet out just 1 inch or 2. What I am after is to have a little more movement with the wheel to keep the boat in the grove and sailing fast. With the sheet to tight it becomes real hard to keep the boat in the grove. I heavy we will move the sheet car back a hole or 2 for the head sail. This will let the top of the head sail allow to spill of some air. I will also really crank in the jib sheet and have a very flat sail. I will have the blade up for me it is a 108% but for most it will be a 110%. I will also have allot of halyard tension. We want to more the draft of the head sail to 40 %. I will also crank on the back stay to get the forstay as tight as possible. This allow the head sail to be very flat. I will then tighten the out haul on the main all the way out and crank on some cunning ham to move the draft of the sail forward. Ideal draft for the main would be 50% aft of the mast. We need this because we have turbulance from the mast it'self. I then drive from the rail with a person sitting with the traveler line in the hand and we will drop the traveler a few inches in the puff's. This allow's the boat to stay on it's feet with getting allot of drive from the head sail. We will also have at times a very big bubble in the mainsail. This is ok because we are getting allot of drive from the head sail. On the sail's draft postion it is kinda like a jet as Don suggest. On Jet's that sail slower and need allot of Lift from the wings it will have a very thick wing section. It needs this for maxium lift all the time. On Jet's where all they do is go fast then a thinner wing section is needed because it is going allot faster and get's it's lift from the speed. Same thing with a sail as the wind range changes the sail shape needs to change. Cliff
Add to what? Miss what?
Maybe the pop-up ads are interfering with some of the resonding posts. I saw a question from Ace directed to Don on his guest forum, but the only answers seen on my connection were from Cliff and Greg... so whassup? Am I out of the loop?
Maybe the pop-up ads are interfering with some of the resonding posts. I saw a question from Ace directed to Don on his guest forum, but the only answers seen on my connection were from Cliff and Greg... so whassup? Am I out of the loop?
Out of the loop
Joe, Don did respond as well as Greg and I and then Don asked if any one else wanted to add to it.
Joe, Don did respond as well as Greg and I and then Don asked if any one else wanted to add to it.
Tweaking to point higher ....
First of all the Santana20 ('Tuna20') is a *wonderful* boat ... good hull form, versatile rig and a 'wonderful' keel. I hope that you sail it HARD. ;-) What exactly do you want to do, point high (with speed) or win races???? there is a *big* difference ... This reply will involve 'steering' as well as trimming tactics. (Sorry but this may be a bit 'advanced' for many). FIRST, set a 'tight' backstay. this is to be sure that the forestay doesnt 'sag' to the lee side when the jib is 'fully loaded'. Then, be sure the boat's sails are *perfectly* trimmed/shaped (using luff and leech tell-tales ... and of course using Don's book/charts, etc !!!!) Then add a *row* of short tell-tales at 'eye-level' on both side of the jib - starting at the luff and running back to approx mid-cord -- these you will use to 'steer' the boat and keep it in the 'groove' as the apparent wind changes when you accelerate, etc. This row of short tales will insure that you dont develop a small 'stagnation bubble' ON or just behind the luff. Triming (standard) tales are usually too far back from the luff to see a small stagnation bubble start to form ON the luff. Initially tune the rig and set perfect sail trim for a 'dead fish helm' --- NO helm pressure either to windward or leeward. Set-up and trim based on the *current' wind and water conditions. Use a knotmeter to verify each adjustment to be SURE that you are getting max. speed out of each adjustment. I think a knotmeter that reads to 0,1kts is the KEY to good set/shape, etc. You want the shape and trim adjusted so that *all* the lee telltales are streaming back and NOT agitated; the windward tales may be 'slightly' agitated (especially in 'light' winds). THEN, either change mast rake - very slightly to aft OR lightly release the mainsail halyard tension to get just a wee-bit of weather helm by relocating the draft position slightly aft of a dead-fish/neutral helm feedback. Boat may now be very FAST but may not be able to 'point' at this time. If the boat is now in perfect set and with perfect trim, begin to bring the jib clew IN towards the boats center line while watching the knotmeter. I dont know if the S20 uses an athwartships traveller on the jib fairleads .... if you have nothing else, use line tied to the mast, around the jibsheet at the clew and back to the mast again and then to a cleat ..... and pull tension; this will move the clew inboard (a permanent 'set up' with rope and a ring is called a 'barber hauler'. Steer to keep the lee side 'steering' tell tales laying flat while watching the knotmerter .... as you pull in on the barber-hauler, Stop pulling in when the speed -'begins' to drop and the mid-chord leeside tell tales on the main start to become unstable ... let out 1/2-1 inch of barber hauler. You just optimized the 'slot' !!!! and the boat should now point like a banshee. Look to see that all the 'normal' tell tales are correct and make minor chages to restore. You now set/trimmed the sails..... now lets get the keel 'flying/lifitng! ...... do not steer in a straight line!!!!! Steer by slowly 'scalloping' constantly back and forth and slowly changing your body position back and forth across the centerline ... the boat will sail a gentle "S" course. It goes like this: let your body weight go (lean) towards the leeside to initiate the boat to heel a bit more as you pull in on the mainsheet (a bit more than 'perfect' set). You will feel the tiller begin to give more pressure as the boat begins to heel and pick up speed (so begin to slowly pull the tiller to windward to balance the helm and share the load between the keel and rudder - and continue to complete the 'scallop'.... as the apparent wind 'increases'. Follow the apparent wind by using the steering tell tales (keeping the leeside flat). What this does is let the KEEL to begin to 'fly' and causes the keel to 'lift' to windward ... just like a sail you will find that with increasing heel the boat will 'magically' start to move to windward (because the keel is 'flying' and creating 'lift'). Follow the steering tell tales until the boat starts to lose a little speed and begins to decrease heel ... and begin all-over again by shifting your weight towards the lee side and over trimming the mainsheet in, etc. Overtightening the mainsheet will 'cup' the leech to windward and help the boat to heel ... but dont overdo as this 'hooking the leech to windward' will act as an 'air-brake' if overdone. What will beocme obvious to you is .... leaning your body to leeward while pulling IN on the mainsheet and pulling the tiller .... until the boat speed starts to slow (it will soon become a single event with a little practice). .... This is called 'working a boat to weather' .... and should give you several MORE degrees of pointing ability. If there is a neighboring S20 (or other comparable boat) get that boat to sail with you as a 'trial-horse' to gauge the result of your adjustments while he/she makes no adjustments. --------------------------------- Other..... If racing, and near the end of a leg and about ~5-8 boatlengths to the next 'layline' ... before tacking on a new leg - overtrim the mainsail by pulling the mainsheet tight to slightly cup the leech to get the boat over on its side and leave the mainsheet overtightened until you complete the tack at the layline .... ***and pinch-hard to weather*** - .... the speed will slow down but you will greatly 'walk up to weather' and save several boatlengths 'up' on the next leg. PInching close to the next layline will pay dividends in less *total* distance traveled. Since the next point to tacking is at essentially 90 degrees, your current VMG will be hardly affected at all ... but the boatlengths on the next tack that you DONT have to sail will be remarkable. Racing is a game of INCHES. If you can save 100 or 200 inches of total distance travelled per tack .... it adds up to a BIG savings. Hope this helps. Sorry to be long winded ( do I expose my PASSION for sail/trim set ..... ? )
First of all the Santana20 ('Tuna20') is a *wonderful* boat ... good hull form, versatile rig and a 'wonderful' keel. I hope that you sail it HARD. ;-) What exactly do you want to do, point high (with speed) or win races???? there is a *big* difference ... This reply will involve 'steering' as well as trimming tactics. (Sorry but this may be a bit 'advanced' for many). FIRST, set a 'tight' backstay. this is to be sure that the forestay doesnt 'sag' to the lee side when the jib is 'fully loaded'. Then, be sure the boat's sails are *perfectly* trimmed/shaped (using luff and leech tell-tales ... and of course using Don's book/charts, etc !!!!) Then add a *row* of short tell-tales at 'eye-level' on both side of the jib - starting at the luff and running back to approx mid-cord -- these you will use to 'steer' the boat and keep it in the 'groove' as the apparent wind changes when you accelerate, etc. This row of short tales will insure that you dont develop a small 'stagnation bubble' ON or just behind the luff. Triming (standard) tales are usually too far back from the luff to see a small stagnation bubble start to form ON the luff. Initially tune the rig and set perfect sail trim for a 'dead fish helm' --- NO helm pressure either to windward or leeward. Set-up and trim based on the *current' wind and water conditions. Use a knotmeter to verify each adjustment to be SURE that you are getting max. speed out of each adjustment. I think a knotmeter that reads to 0,1kts is the KEY to good set/shape, etc. You want the shape and trim adjusted so that *all* the lee telltales are streaming back and NOT agitated; the windward tales may be 'slightly' agitated (especially in 'light' winds). THEN, either change mast rake - very slightly to aft OR lightly release the mainsail halyard tension to get just a wee-bit of weather helm by relocating the draft position slightly aft of a dead-fish/neutral helm feedback. Boat may now be very FAST but may not be able to 'point' at this time. If the boat is now in perfect set and with perfect trim, begin to bring the jib clew IN towards the boats center line while watching the knotmeter. I dont know if the S20 uses an athwartships traveller on the jib fairleads .... if you have nothing else, use line tied to the mast, around the jibsheet at the clew and back to the mast again and then to a cleat ..... and pull tension; this will move the clew inboard (a permanent 'set up' with rope and a ring is called a 'barber hauler'. Steer to keep the lee side 'steering' tell tales laying flat while watching the knotmerter .... as you pull in on the barber-hauler, Stop pulling in when the speed -'begins' to drop and the mid-chord leeside tell tales on the main start to become unstable ... let out 1/2-1 inch of barber hauler. You just optimized the 'slot' !!!! and the boat should now point like a banshee. Look to see that all the 'normal' tell tales are correct and make minor chages to restore. You now set/trimmed the sails..... now lets get the keel 'flying/lifitng! ...... do not steer in a straight line!!!!! Steer by slowly 'scalloping' constantly back and forth and slowly changing your body position back and forth across the centerline ... the boat will sail a gentle "S" course. It goes like this: let your body weight go (lean) towards the leeside to initiate the boat to heel a bit more as you pull in on the mainsheet (a bit more than 'perfect' set). You will feel the tiller begin to give more pressure as the boat begins to heel and pick up speed (so begin to slowly pull the tiller to windward to balance the helm and share the load between the keel and rudder - and continue to complete the 'scallop'.... as the apparent wind 'increases'. Follow the apparent wind by using the steering tell tales (keeping the leeside flat). What this does is let the KEEL to begin to 'fly' and causes the keel to 'lift' to windward ... just like a sail you will find that with increasing heel the boat will 'magically' start to move to windward (because the keel is 'flying' and creating 'lift'). Follow the steering tell tales until the boat starts to lose a little speed and begins to decrease heel ... and begin all-over again by shifting your weight towards the lee side and over trimming the mainsheet in, etc. Overtightening the mainsheet will 'cup' the leech to windward and help the boat to heel ... but dont overdo as this 'hooking the leech to windward' will act as an 'air-brake' if overdone. What will beocme obvious to you is .... leaning your body to leeward while pulling IN on the mainsheet and pulling the tiller .... until the boat speed starts to slow (it will soon become a single event with a little practice). .... This is called 'working a boat to weather' .... and should give you several MORE degrees of pointing ability. If there is a neighboring S20 (or other comparable boat) get that boat to sail with you as a 'trial-horse' to gauge the result of your adjustments while he/she makes no adjustments. --------------------------------- Other..... If racing, and near the end of a leg and about ~5-8 boatlengths to the next 'layline' ... before tacking on a new leg - overtrim the mainsail by pulling the mainsheet tight to slightly cup the leech to get the boat over on its side and leave the mainsheet overtightened until you complete the tack at the layline .... ***and pinch-hard to weather*** - .... the speed will slow down but you will greatly 'walk up to weather' and save several boatlengths 'up' on the next leg. PInching close to the next layline will pay dividends in less *total* distance traveled. Since the next point to tacking is at essentially 90 degrees, your current VMG will be hardly affected at all ... but the boatlengths on the next tack that you DONT have to sail will be remarkable. Racing is a game of INCHES. If you can save 100 or 200 inches of total distance travelled per tack .... it adds up to a BIG savings. Hope this helps. Sorry to be long winded ( do I expose my PASSION for sail/trim set ..... ? )
Where is Don's Response?
While I appreciate the answers given by the other sailors in response to my question, I too would like to know just where is Don's reply? BTW, I bought Don's book and charts but if the answer is in the book, I guess I need the page number(s). Also, I'm quite aware of pointing vs. speed but surely there must be ways to optimize both pointing and speed. That's why I wanted to hear from Don Guillette how to trim, tweak and tune to get the optimum pointing and speed! Thanks in advance. Regards; Ace
While I appreciate the answers given by the other sailors in response to my question, I too would like to know just where is Don's reply? BTW, I bought Don's book and charts but if the answer is in the book, I guess I need the page number(s). Also, I'm quite aware of pointing vs. speed but surely there must be ways to optimize both pointing and speed. That's why I wanted to hear from Don Guillette how to trim, tweak and tune to get the optimum pointing and speed! Thanks in advance. Regards; Ace
How to point higher
I'm back now. Due to the heavy rains in So Ca we lost part of our hill. It did not damage any property, it just slipped down our back hill. What a mess but nothing compared to folks that have lost their homes. The problem now is you can't get any help because every contractor is busy so your on your own. I'm glad I have to brawny sons, who helped me cover the bank with plastic to prevent further damage. We were up to our kness is liquid mud. Anyway, there are some sailors on this Forum, like Rich H (Worton Creek) and Cliff (Lake Erie),and others who are great sail trimmers plus they can communicate. There are a number of other great trimer over on the Hunter list, who have master the Hunter better than I ever could, which is pretty easy since I've never sailed on a Hunter. Ace, the first thing I would do is print Rich H's and Cliff's responses. It is hard to follow their act but there are a few things I would add. I do have one question - how high are you now sailing? If you are trying to "pinch" (see explanation below) that is not necessarily a good idea. Unless your main and jib are perfectly trimmed, you can forget about trying to point any higher. Also, there is a point that you can't point beyond because the shape of the boat, hull and sails will prevent you from going any further. How do you find that point? It's easy, your telltails will tell you. Once your get the telltails streaming, just push the boat up a little further until the windward telltail "flips" every 2 to 3 seconds. That is as far as you want to go. What you are actually doing is called "pinching". When you pinch you are sailing closer to your upwind destination - the distance is shorter - but your sailing slower and it will take you longer to get there. You know you are pinching when the windward telltail flips all over the place. The other extreme is called "footing" or sailing to low. Your sailing faster but your going away from your destination so it takes you longer to get where your going. How do you know when your footing? If the windward telltails hang limp, your sailing to low. What a sailor should do is split the difference and find a spot between pinching and footing, which will give you the optimum course and speed. Here's a tip that applies to wind shifts - "foot to a header and pinch to a lift". This is a tactic the America Cup skippers use. Why does it work? When you foot to a header your sailing faster than if you pinch. When you pinch to a lift, you'll take advantage of the lift and increase your speed. The usual response to a header is to tack. Next time you encounter a header, try my suggestion before you tack and see if it works for you. Do the same for a lift. If it does not work for you, go back to what you were formally doing.
I'm back now. Due to the heavy rains in So Ca we lost part of our hill. It did not damage any property, it just slipped down our back hill. What a mess but nothing compared to folks that have lost their homes. The problem now is you can't get any help because every contractor is busy so your on your own. I'm glad I have to brawny sons, who helped me cover the bank with plastic to prevent further damage. We were up to our kness is liquid mud. Anyway, there are some sailors on this Forum, like Rich H (Worton Creek) and Cliff (Lake Erie),and others who are great sail trimmers plus they can communicate. There are a number of other great trimer over on the Hunter list, who have master the Hunter better than I ever could, which is pretty easy since I've never sailed on a Hunter. Ace, the first thing I would do is print Rich H's and Cliff's responses. It is hard to follow their act but there are a few things I would add. I do have one question - how high are you now sailing? If you are trying to "pinch" (see explanation below) that is not necessarily a good idea. Unless your main and jib are perfectly trimmed, you can forget about trying to point any higher. Also, there is a point that you can't point beyond because the shape of the boat, hull and sails will prevent you from going any further. How do you find that point? It's easy, your telltails will tell you. Once your get the telltails streaming, just push the boat up a little further until the windward telltail "flips" every 2 to 3 seconds. That is as far as you want to go. What you are actually doing is called "pinching". When you pinch you are sailing closer to your upwind destination - the distance is shorter - but your sailing slower and it will take you longer to get there. You know you are pinching when the windward telltail flips all over the place. The other extreme is called "footing" or sailing to low. Your sailing faster but your going away from your destination so it takes you longer to get where your going. How do you know when your footing? If the windward telltails hang limp, your sailing to low. What a sailor should do is split the difference and find a spot between pinching and footing, which will give you the optimum course and speed. Here's a tip that applies to wind shifts - "foot to a header and pinch to a lift". This is a tactic the America Cup skippers use. Why does it work? When you foot to a header your sailing faster than if you pinch. When you pinch to a lift, you'll take advantage of the lift and increase your speed. The usual response to a header is to tack. Next time you encounter a header, try my suggestion before you tack and see if it works for you. Do the same for a lift. If it does not work for you, go back to what you were formally doing.
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