When I bought my boat last year it came with a symetrical spinnaker and all the fixings, except pole and sheets. I am in the process of outfitting a pole that will be jibed end for end because of the inner forestay. I will not be rigging lazy sheets/guys. I have read that sheets should be twice boat length, without explanation. So can anyone give me the calculation and the basis for determining sheet/guy length for symetrical chute flown with a pole? I know this is a sail trim forum, but I can't post any spinnaker trim questions in my present situation. Thanks, Scott
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Bill O'Donovan
Ideas
Sheets are twice the length of the boat because that way they can go all the way around on a gybe. You could accomplish the same function with two sheets each 1x the length of the boat, to go from the clew to the block back to the winch. Check with anyone on your dock who flies a spin to see the setup and it will make sense abundantly. Writing about it is like writing about trying to raise children.
Sheets are twice the length of the boat because that way they can go all the way around on a gybe. You could accomplish the same function with two sheets each 1x the length of the boat, to go from the clew to the block back to the winch. Check with anyone on your dock who flies a spin to see the setup and it will make sense abundantly. Writing about it is like writing about trying to raise children.
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Paul McGhee
2x boatlength is for asymmetricals...
...for the reason that Bill pointed out. How are you going to fly a spinaker without a guy? What keeps the pole from whacking the forestay? On the boat that I race, the sheets/guys are about 1 boat length apiece.
...for the reason that Bill pointed out. How are you going to fly a spinaker without a guy? What keeps the pole from whacking the forestay? On the boat that I race, the sheets/guys are about 1 boat length apiece.
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Joe
Paul is correct...
... on symetrical spinnaker, with pole, there are two clews that don't cross the bow when jibing. On an asymetical there is a clew and a tack. Thei requires longer sheets because the clew must cross the forestay to change sides in a jibe. I would have enough length to allow the sheet and guy to reach the clew when the pole is all the way forward. One boat length is okay, but I'd add another 10-15 feet to give you some flexibility when trimming. I would reconsider your decision not to rig with sheets and afterguys. Once you start using the sail you will find it much easier to trim or jibe with both. If you don't you'll have to set up a twing line for each sheet. This acts like a jib lead that adjusts the downward angle of the guy or sheet.
... on symetrical spinnaker, with pole, there are two clews that don't cross the bow when jibing. On an asymetical there is a clew and a tack. Thei requires longer sheets because the clew must cross the forestay to change sides in a jibe. I would have enough length to allow the sheet and guy to reach the clew when the pole is all the way forward. One boat length is okay, but I'd add another 10-15 feet to give you some flexibility when trimming. I would reconsider your decision not to rig with sheets and afterguys. Once you start using the sail you will find it much easier to trim or jibe with both. If you don't you'll have to set up a twing line for each sheet. This acts like a jib lead that adjusts the downward angle of the guy or sheet.
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scott wilson
Sheet, you guys are helpful, pun intended.
I guess I get my sail control line terms confused sometimes. I know that there is an "afterguy" but I call the line to the clew/pole-end the "guy" and the other control line to the other crew the "sheet". The pole control lines I refer to as the uphaul and the downhaul. I have seen diagrams with sail control lines refered to as "Lazy" sheet and guy, which I can't quite figure out the purpose of. Anyway, I will now get 2 lines of equal length , being about boat length plus 10-15 feet, to attach to the sym chute clews as a sheet and a guy. After a jibe, the guy become the sheet and the sheet becomes the guy. Right Guys? Scott
I guess I get my sail control line terms confused sometimes. I know that there is an "afterguy" but I call the line to the clew/pole-end the "guy" and the other control line to the other crew the "sheet". The pole control lines I refer to as the uphaul and the downhaul. I have seen diagrams with sail control lines refered to as "Lazy" sheet and guy, which I can't quite figure out the purpose of. Anyway, I will now get 2 lines of equal length , being about boat length plus 10-15 feet, to attach to the sym chute clews as a sheet and a guy. After a jibe, the guy become the sheet and the sheet becomes the guy. Right Guys? Scott
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Paul McGhee
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Alan
Joe
I think that 15' plus the boat length is not enough. Many times it is important to trim from the weather rail and cross deck sheeting. 2X boat length is needed.
I think that 15' plus the boat length is not enough. Many times it is important to trim from the weather rail and cross deck sheeting. 2X boat length is needed.
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Joe
Alan
On my 27 footer the extra 15 feet is more than half the boat length so... that make's it 1 1/2. I can see need for extra length when cross winching, how much is a matter of preference.
On my 27 footer the extra 15 feet is more than half the boat length so... that make's it 1 1/2. I can see need for extra length when cross winching, how much is a matter of preference.
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scott wilson
Alan, I am not going to be racing,
and I only have 2 sheet winches ( excluding the mainsheet winch on the cabin top) in the cockpit. So, as I understand cross deck sheet trimming, I would not be able to do this anyway. The sheet/guy fairleads will be about 4 feet forward of the stern. So on my hunter 37, can I get away with 50ft sheet/guy lines, or is your vote 60ft lines? Scott
and I only have 2 sheet winches ( excluding the mainsheet winch on the cabin top) in the cockpit. So, as I understand cross deck sheet trimming, I would not be able to do this anyway. The sheet/guy fairleads will be about 4 feet forward of the stern. So on my hunter 37, can I get away with 50ft sheet/guy lines, or is your vote 60ft lines? Scott
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Rick Macdonald
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Vic
Used both racing and single handed ...
just run the sheet around the "working" winch once, and cross the cockpit to the "lazy" side winch and use that winch to trim. Gives the ability to trim the jib from the high side and also the ability to trim and release from one side single handed ... as long as the sheets are pre placed in the right spot when you need them. Vic 'Seven'
just run the sheet around the "working" winch once, and cross the cockpit to the "lazy" side winch and use that winch to trim. Gives the ability to trim the jib from the high side and also the ability to trim and release from one side single handed ... as long as the sheets are pre placed in the right spot when you need them. Vic 'Seven'
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Rick Macdonald
I see...
Obviously you have to throw the working sheet off both winches and re-thread the other sheet for each tack. When I replaced my horn cleats on my H23.5 with Spinlock PX Powercleats recently, allowing me to single-hand for the first time, I wondered if people ever cross the sheets over the cockpit such that the working sheet is always on the high side. This is similar to what you said but the deck hardware would then be dedicated to the sheets that were there and only had to be released and cleated in place when tacking. To do this I would need turning blocks forward of the powercleats. I'm not sure if the angles and friction would be a problem. As it turns out, the criss-crossing of my jib sheets in the cockpit hasn't been a problem, and I can certainly work the lower powercleat while sitting anywhere on the high side. IE the angle of the sheet at the back of the cleat is not a problem. The sheets stay in place and I just have to drop one and pick up the other, but I do have to get the new one to the top of the sheet heap on the cockpit floor after each tack. Crossing them forward of the powercleats (or winches/cleats in your case) would make things neater though. I wonder if people ever do it this way?
Obviously you have to throw the working sheet off both winches and re-thread the other sheet for each tack. When I replaced my horn cleats on my H23.5 with Spinlock PX Powercleats recently, allowing me to single-hand for the first time, I wondered if people ever cross the sheets over the cockpit such that the working sheet is always on the high side. This is similar to what you said but the deck hardware would then be dedicated to the sheets that were there and only had to be released and cleated in place when tacking. To do this I would need turning blocks forward of the powercleats. I'm not sure if the angles and friction would be a problem. As it turns out, the criss-crossing of my jib sheets in the cockpit hasn't been a problem, and I can certainly work the lower powercleat while sitting anywhere on the high side. IE the angle of the sheet at the back of the cleat is not a problem. The sheets stay in place and I just have to drop one and pick up the other, but I do have to get the new one to the top of the sheet heap on the cockpit floor after each tack. Crossing them forward of the powercleats (or winches/cleats in your case) would make things neater though. I wonder if people ever do it this way?
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Joe
Rick.... reconsider those powercleats
I don't think the powercleat is a good choice for jib sheet applications. An open top design like a jam,clam or cam-o-matic cleat is much more preferred than the clutch type. The sheet can be easily thrown off the winch for tacking and it can be set or released from a distance. In answer to previous question, cross winching is simply using the winch as a block or fairlead to redirect the loaded sheet to the windward side of the boat. On racing boats the spinnaker trimmer often stands on the windward rail near the shrouds to get a better look at the sail. The sheet must run from the leeward clew, back through the aft turning block, then up to the leeward cabin top winch then across the the cabin to his position on the rail. The grinder grinds the appropriate winch, the trimmer rarely cleats the sheet because it needs constant tending. This is a scenario that would require extra sheet length. I often cross winch my genny sheet when single handing. One turn around the leeward winch redirects the sheet to the windward winch where is is also cleated.(lazy sheet is layed aside.)
I don't think the powercleat is a good choice for jib sheet applications. An open top design like a jam,clam or cam-o-matic cleat is much more preferred than the clutch type. The sheet can be easily thrown off the winch for tacking and it can be set or released from a distance. In answer to previous question, cross winching is simply using the winch as a block or fairlead to redirect the loaded sheet to the windward side of the boat. On racing boats the spinnaker trimmer often stands on the windward rail near the shrouds to get a better look at the sail. The sheet must run from the leeward clew, back through the aft turning block, then up to the leeward cabin top winch then across the the cabin to his position on the rail. The grinder grinds the appropriate winch, the trimmer rarely cleats the sheet because it needs constant tending. This is a scenario that would require extra sheet length. I often cross winch my genny sheet when single handing. One turn around the leeward winch redirects the sheet to the windward winch where is is also cleated.(lazy sheet is layed aside.)
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Rick Macdonald
Powercleat is not a clutch
I think you are confusing the PX PowerCleat with a clutch. The powercleat just flicks up and down and can be operated easily from anywhere in the cockpit, even sitting on the windward stern rail seat. The hand motion to release the powercleat from a distance is the same as with an open-top jam or cam cleat, but with two big improvements. It's effortless to release under load, and the sheet is captive in the internal fairlead and is just as easily re-cleated with a downward flick of the sheet from a distance. I think the cross winch method that you and Vic describe is pretty cool. I wish I had known about that earlier. Even then, it wouldn't be as good as the powercleats since I'd still have to let go of the tiller to reach the winches and horn cleats when tacking. Below is a link to the Spinlock site for anybody who missed all the spinlock threads a couple of months ago. We're talking about the SPX0812. Last week I ordered an SPXB0812 to replace the cam cleat on my mainsheet.
I think you are confusing the PX PowerCleat with a clutch. The powercleat just flicks up and down and can be operated easily from anywhere in the cockpit, even sitting on the windward stern rail seat. The hand motion to release the powercleat from a distance is the same as with an open-top jam or cam cleat, but with two big improvements. It's effortless to release under load, and the sheet is captive in the internal fairlead and is just as easily re-cleated with a downward flick of the sheet from a distance. I think the cross winch method that you and Vic describe is pretty cool. I wish I had known about that earlier. Even then, it wouldn't be as good as the powercleats since I'd still have to let go of the tiller to reach the winches and horn cleats when tacking. Below is a link to the Spinlock site for anybody who missed all the spinlock threads a couple of months ago. We're talking about the SPX0812. Last week I ordered an SPXB0812 to replace the cam cleat on my mainsheet.
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Vic
I forgot to say that I have self tailing winches .
which makes it easier and auto tiller which takes a while to figure out as well. Nothing like having the auto tiller pin your leg up against the cockpit seat to help you figure out a better way. You just have to think ahead as to where it is easiest to grab the new working sheet ... really ... just do it a half dozen times and at some point the right "moves" will be with you ... Also helps not to practice this stuff in 20+ wind in the middle of a busy channel. Vic "Seven"
which makes it easier and auto tiller which takes a while to figure out as well. Nothing like having the auto tiller pin your leg up against the cockpit seat to help you figure out a better way. You just have to think ahead as to where it is easiest to grab the new working sheet ... really ... just do it a half dozen times and at some point the right "moves" will be with you ... Also helps not to practice this stuff in 20+ wind in the middle of a busy channel. Vic "Seven"
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Alan
Scott
In answer to your question about sheet length, you didn't say whether or not it was an akite. A symetrical spinnaker doesn't need the length that an akite does. Most cruisers are going to use the akite because no pole is used. If you are racing then you will want to have both. Therefore you would need the longer (2X) to be able to cover both. PS: NEVER put a stopper knot in your spinn sheets.
In answer to your question about sheet length, you didn't say whether or not it was an akite. A symetrical spinnaker doesn't need the length that an akite does. Most cruisers are going to use the akite because no pole is used. If you are racing then you will want to have both. Therefore you would need the longer (2X) to be able to cover both. PS: NEVER put a stopper knot in your spinn sheets.
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scott wilson
Alan, just say "no" to stopper knot
thanks for the reminder, I forgot about that. I used to crew on a racer and the skipper kept a sheethed knife taped in the cockpit. I have a sym chute that came with the boat and the mast is rigged for a pole. I will stick to that until I get tired of messing w/the pole. I ordered 110 ft of line from sailnet to make my two 55ft sheet/guy control lines for my 37 footer. Wonderfull weekend we had, now just rain, rain and rain. Scott
thanks for the reminder, I forgot about that. I used to crew on a racer and the skipper kept a sheethed knife taped in the cockpit. I have a sym chute that came with the boat and the mast is rigged for a pole. I will stick to that until I get tired of messing w/the pole. I ordered 110 ft of line from sailnet to make my two 55ft sheet/guy control lines for my 37 footer. Wonderfull weekend we had, now just rain, rain and rain. Scott
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Alan
You bet
We do the same. You never know when you might need it, and every crew member carries a single hand opening knife also.
We do the same. You never know when you might need it, and every crew member carries a single hand opening knife also.
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Joe
Rick, I know what a powercleat is....
... when I say clutch "type" I'm referring to the captive nature of the line it controls. It's this captive feature that restricts its use as a sheet winch cleat. For hand tensioned lines it's very cool, but with a sheet winch it's too restrictive. Good luck.
... when I say clutch "type" I'm referring to the captive nature of the line it controls. It's this captive feature that restricts its use as a sheet winch cleat. For hand tensioned lines it's very cool, but with a sheet winch it's too restrictive. Good luck.
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Rick Macdonald
No winches with Powercleats
Yes, we're agreed now. Those of us who have switched jib sheets from horn cleats to Powercleats all have much smaller boats, Hunter water-ballast 23' to 26' for example. The Powercleats are rated for hand-tensioned lines only, which we can get away with on our smaller boats.
Yes, we're agreed now. Those of us who have switched jib sheets from horn cleats to Powercleats all have much smaller boats, Hunter water-ballast 23' to 26' for example. The Powercleats are rated for hand-tensioned lines only, which we can get away with on our smaller boats.
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