how should i rig my mainsheet??

[hawk232]

wow, been a long time since I was last here. what can I say, life happened!! anyhow, I finally bought a sailboat, albeit not near the boat I was hoping for several years ago, but it will give me and the wife an idea what its all about with very little money upfront. the boat is a 1977 rk 20 (same hull as Ensenada 20 and balboa 20). the lady I bought it from inherited the boat and knows absolutely nothing about it. I picked it up on a good trailer for $500. got home and found out it has a BRAND NEW never even mounted rudder/tiller from idasailor!! score!!

onto the question at hand. I seem to have pieced everything together out of all that was in the boat except for the mainsheet setup. this is also my first sailboat so I am not familiar with much about it. I have researched a bit and it seems that there are multiple ways to set it up. I am most curious about how it was most likely set up with the hardware that is already on the boat.

I ASSUME that this "y bridle" on the transom has something to do with the main sheet since I cant find anything else to use it for?


what about these? what would they be used for? there is also another set on top of the cabin that I do not know the purpose of?





there is also a block on the mast just above the spreaders, looks like its for a cable (maybe a halyard of some sort??) and a second "fore" stay that runs from around the spreaders to about the middle of the foredeck. I am not sure what these are for?? maybe a storm jib or something??

I know that is a lot of questions for one post, and that generally speaking too many questions can deter a response so with that being said, the main question for right now is "how should I setup my mainsheet with the hardware that is already on the boat? I do not have any fiddle blocks or single blocks or anything in any of the stuff that came with the boat so I will have to buy all of that stuff. thanks for any help!!!

 

[CalebD]

Well, those tracks (both outside the cockpit & on top of the deck house) are fair leads for your jib sheets. The tracks on top of the house are for use with a small jib with the sheets led inside the shrouds and the outboard tracks are for use with a larger jib with the sheets led outside the shrouds. In either case the jib sheets are routed through the springy blocks and then to a winch. The blocks can be moved along the track for optimal adjustment.
I see no fiddle blocks which would be my choice for main sheet hardware. double blocks tend to get badly twisted, IMO. Keep looking for more hardware.
Sounds as if you have an optional Solent stay that can be rigged on the fore deck. That is great but perhaps a bit complex to tackle now while you are still figuring out the basic rig.

 

[Brian S]

1) Mainsheet: Probably use the bridle mounted to the eye straps on the coaming, for end-boom sheeting. You'd definitely want a topping lift, because you don't want the mainsheet block/jammer cleat and boom to fall into the cockpit when you strike the main.

2) Adjustable sheave on track on coaming: Sheet fairlead for genoa, maybe 135%. Probably wouldn't go aft far enough for a 150%

3) Similar track on cabin top: Sheet fairlead for jib, either non-overlapping, or maybe as big as 110% max.

4) Block about 6" above hounds on mast: Proper location for spinnaker (esp. asym) on a fractional rig.

5) Second forestay: ??? That's not a cutter rig, so I don't know what that would be for. Certainly if that boat were set up for a symmetrical spinnaker, you'd need a topping lift and downhaul for the pole, but a non-adjustable wire wouldn't do for those purposes. Sorry I can't help you out, but I'm sure others familiar with that vintage boat will be able to help.

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[Brian S]

Ooops, Caleb beat me to the post…

And to think, just today, I was reading an article about a guy converting a big boat to blue water cruising, and they added a Solent stay so as to be able to fly a 90% hank on jib, and roll up the roller reefing genoa when conditions warrant. They also had a storm jib. With triple reefed main, they could have pretty much all configs covered without ever having to roller reef the genoa, thus getting a crappy sail shape.

I shoulda thought of that, but I figured, as Caleb says, that would be an awfully complicated rig for a 20' boat.

Brian

 

[Joe]

Put the mast up, mount the boom... the rest will fall into place. Since I didn't see a picture of the boom, there's no way to tell how the mainsheet will be rigged. You can google for a picture of basic sailboat rigging to determine the layout. There aren't going to be any surprises since it looks like the rigging is still attached to the mast.

Well, I googled "rk20" and got enough hits to feel comfortable posting this YouTube shot... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCwV4yHPqow There's a very good picture of the mainsheet. So the wires are not correct... the "Y" should be a block and tackle rig that allows you to pull the boom laterally.... like a traveler. It has to be like that to clear the tiller.

 

[Merlin Clark]

I think the bridle may be for a split backstay. If so, an owner mod.
My first boat was an Ensenada and it had a Crosby rig like in the drawing below.

edit: looks like it does have a split backstay with those turnbuckles. No idea what the bridle would be for.
The Crosby rig works well, can't sheet real high but is self tending and easy to use.
The jib sheet tracks must have been added too to help with performance, original just had standup blocks.
Sounds like you got a great deal!

 

[hawk232]

thanks for the advice everyone!! I have seen that video and I have seen how they were set up stock. I didn't know if there was a better way to rig it though (since I am having to buy all the blocks and stuff anyways, may as well rig it the most beneficial way that I can). is the Crosby rig the best way to do it? I assumed with the bridle that it may have been rigged like this??? which way is better, this way or Crosby rig? Any advice on what size blocks/fiddle?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Many times what LOOKS right, size-wise, IS right. Blocks are made for the size of line that passes through the blocks. Too big a block doesn't work any more than too small a block.

I agree, give it a few days and take it step-by-step.

Good luck.

Congrats on your new boat.

And use the store on this 'site.

 

[Ross]

There appear to be two chain plates with turnbuckles and toggles and a wire rope bridle mounted on a couple of eye straps. That may be for transport security. I agree with the suggestion
of stepping the mast and installing the boom. We don't know if it is sheeted from the end or the middle.

 

[hawk232]

I have mounted the boom. it appears to be sheeted from the end as there are no blocks or any other hardware to sheet from the middle. there is an "attachement" point further towards the mast on the boom but I assume its for a vang?? would I benefit from modifying it to sheet from the middle?

edit: yes, the two turnbuckles are for the modified split backstay. the jury is still out on the bridle lol, im liking the transport security idea though (if its not for the mainsheet that is)

 

[hawk232]

after watching that video closely and looking at the exact mounting points of his blocks I went and looked at my boat. there are four holes on each side in roughly the same location that have been marine tex'd over. so this is NOT how the boat was last sailed.

at this point I am just looking for the most inexpensive option to get us sailing (which I assume would be to figure out how the PO had it rigged) as I have only been sailing twice in my life and my wife only once (and a horrible experience at that). at this point we just want to confirm that we like sailing before I sink too much $$ into the boat, I hope that makes sense!

 

[Brian S]

Hawk, you probably would want to use at least 5/16" line for your mainsheet, or maybe 3/8".

If you decide to use a 3:1 system like the image you previously posted, and attach the fiddle with cam cleat to that wire bridle, you can size your hardware based on the line size you choose. (I prefer 5/16" for jib sheets, 3/8" for mainsheet, for our size boats. For a genoa on a 20-21' boat, I might go to 3/8" for genoa sheets, mainly because the bigger line is easier on the hands.)

I have found Viadana hardware from Sailcare.com to be well made, sometimes the exact same design as similar Harken hardware (the Viadana cam cleat and the Harken H150 are the same design licensed to each manufacturer by the designer...) Consider the 96.82 here: http://sailcare.com/fiddle-blocks.shtml and the 12.71 here: http://sailcare.com/bb-blocks-716.shtml for use with 3/8" line, and perhaps some very reasonable cost Novabraid XLE double braid polyester http://sailcare.com/ropeshop.shtml

On my 15' boat, I got good advice from Annapolis Performance Sailing, and spent a lot of money on Harken hardware from them. Then, for my O'day, I've discovered the Viadana stuff. I've been very satisfied with the prices and functionality. Jerry at Sailcare has been very helpful when I've called him, and given me some good advice from time to time. Those are my 2 go-to recommendations, as a satisfied customer with no affiliation to either retailer.

Brian

 

[hawk232]

thanks for the advise!!

functionally speaking which system would be better, the one like I posted using the bridle or the Crosby rig?

I have also found lewmar synchro blocks for about the same price as the viadana products, which would be a better choice? im guessing that with a similar price point, they are probably similar quality?

 

[Brian S]

I have no experience with Lewmar blocks, so I couldn't really say. But for a 20' trailer sailor, I'm sure they will be fine.

In my somewhat limited experience, stamped metal sheave bodies with Antal plastic sheaves spinning on plain SS axles are the worst, and then everything I have that's Harken, Viadana, Ronstan, or Schaefer seems to still spin fine, even the 30 year old stuff.

I will say that I hate, hate, HATE Schaefer cam cleats! Even when the plastic on top of the metal cams isn't broken, they work like crap. I've replaced every one with either a Harken H150, or the exact same design cam cleat from Viadana. Nice, smooth operation, easy engages and disengages. We'll see about the 14 footer I'm restoring. It used many small Ronstan composite plastic cam cleats, and that's what currently produced models of the boat use, so I'll probably go with that for space savings, given the H150 design is fairly large for small dinghy control lines…

Folks rave about Garhauer hardware as well, but I think it tends towards larger boat sized equipment.

Brian

 

[hawk232]

Yea garhauer came up most in the searches for affordable quality. I priced it out and it would only cost about $20 more for the garhauer stuff over the lewmar and viadana. I don't mind spending the extra if the benefits are worth it. Only problem is that I have zero experience with sailing so I don't know what to look for in quality blocks!!

The fundamental question that I still have is should I use a Crosby rig, or the rig in the diagram that I posted? For the Crosby rig I would need the hardware necessary to mount it on the boat also... And are the any advantages of modifying the set up to be mid boom?

 

[Merlin Clark]

I had changed my standard traveler (track mounted) to double mainsheets about 3 years ago and this summer was disappointed to see the 2 of the sheaves on my Viadana blocks had cracked due to UV. The other parts seem to be of good quality but the sheaves are cheap plastic.
I replaced with Garhauer, much better quality overall and aluminum sheaves for just a few dollars more than the Viadanas from Sailcare.
I like 3/8s inch line (sheets and halyards) for small boats like ours, it may be overkill but feels better on the hand than thinner lines. Blocks are usually sized by the line they'll fit.
As for the little triangle on the backstay, this is the way (IIRC) O'Day 20 and 22s are rigged and many owners here on SBO have changed this out 'cause they didn't like it.
I'd go with the Crosby rig, it's pretty forgiving and easy to rig and use.

edit: I see you're in Crystal River (FL?) so you know what UV will do to plastics that aren't made to take it.

 

[Brian S]

Hawk, at this point, since you aren't a sailor, I say go with what is easiest. To me, that looks like a 3:1 end boom off that bridle.

I have a friend with a Crosby rig on a Com-Pac 19. I've sailed that boat, and I've sailed mine with the exact setup off the backstay that you have pictured in the line drawing. To my mind, that Crosby rig has more friction in it. I kinda like my 3:1 end boom. Either one, you're still going to need to learn what the sails are doing to get you going…

As for mid-boom sheeting, I don't know that I would convert an end boom to mid-boom. For one, the boom might not be strong enough for mid-boom. For another, you will lose cockpit space. For another, if you were going to go mid-boom, you might as well install a traveller. And now you're figuring where to mount the traveller, and how that impacts the cockpit space, and…

I say, go simple, use most of what's there, learn to sail, learn the boat, then sail lots of other boats with different setups, and then mod your boat accordingly. I think you have a long way to do before the finer points of this or that setup become a big issue for you. That's not a criticism or judgement, just the way things are.

Sometimes, a designer has set up the boat for how it sails best. Sometimes the boat is set up for how people use it best. Sometimes it's set up for how was cheapest.

My boat is set up with the simple 3:1 end boom sheeting. For a small inshore cruiser/daysailer, this gives me a big cockpit with lots of room to hang out in. Going to mid-boom sheeting gives me less cockpit living space, which is important to me. Changing to mid-boom with a traveller means I can no longer stretch out and lay down on the seats. That's a non-starter. I could probably get better performance out of her if I converted that fixed point sheet to a traveller, but that means a custom raised bridge to clear the tiller (because the rudder is transom hung.) So, that means expense. It was probably determined that for this class of boat, the expense of a custom traveller would not be worth the performance gain, and the target market probably wouldn't care about it anyway. Besides, she's never going to be a racing boat (though I try to sail her like one )

It's all tradeoffs…


Brian

 

[hawk232]

I say, go simple, use most of what's there, learn to sail, learn the boat, then sail lots of other boats with different setups, and then mod your boat accordingly. I think you have a long way to do before the finer points of this or that setup become a big issue for you. That's not a criticism or judgement, just the way things are.

This is absolute truth and definitely not taken as criticism or judgment!!!

at this point it is looking like I am going to go with the garhauer blocks since the price is only a little higher and they are all metal construction. I am going to step the mast and put the boom back on and see how things line up and if it looks like using the bridle is the best option or if things would be more in line (with the end of the boom) if I were to install new mounting points on the gunwale and use a Crosby rig. thanks for all of the help so far everyone! I am hoping to take her out for the maiden voyage next weekend!

 

[hawk232]

ok, question in regards to rigging geometry. is it better for the sheet to pull on the boom slightly towards the mast, or towards the stern or does it matter at all?

I just set it up and the black eyes in the second picture about about 8" FORWARD of the end of the boom and the bridle is about 2ft AFT of the boom. I can Crosby rig from the eyes but that would put a forward pull on the boom or I can use the other setup on the y bridle but that will pull aft on the boom...

 

[redhead78]

the bridle in the rear is probably rear stay, does it attach to rear top of mast?? Red