We sail in the hudson river and the wind can be pretty gusty. We will be listing about 15 degrees and moving along very briskly, when a gust of wind will push us over to 20 or 25 degrees. I tend to get a little nervous and let out the main to slow us down. My question is, how far over can we go before I should get nervous? Can you sail comfortably at 20 to 25 degree list? Is it ok to go over further?
how many degrees of list is too much?
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Barrie McDonald
Steady She Goes
Jhartman, List is not really what you want when sailing your boat. A sailboat will be most efficient sailing through the water in the most vertical position possible. When a boat lists it is not performing very well. It may look great and feel like fun but its not the most desireable position to seek. What you want to do is improve your sail triming. By adjusting your sails to keep your boat in a vertical position you will go faster and not have to hang on for dear life. Try reefing your main sail in winds above 18 knots, trim back your fore sail and watch your speed go up. My Hunter Legend 37 sails much faster in strong winds will a reefed main sail versus leaving all the sails up and listing over say 20 degrees. I think 15 degrees list is a good maximum point to get to, keep the wife happy and trim back those sails. Have fun Barrie
Jhartman, List is not really what you want when sailing your boat. A sailboat will be most efficient sailing through the water in the most vertical position possible. When a boat lists it is not performing very well. It may look great and feel like fun but its not the most desireable position to seek. What you want to do is improve your sail triming. By adjusting your sails to keep your boat in a vertical position you will go faster and not have to hang on for dear life. Try reefing your main sail in winds above 18 knots, trim back your fore sail and watch your speed go up. My Hunter Legend 37 sails much faster in strong winds will a reefed main sail versus leaving all the sails up and listing over say 20 degrees. I think 15 degrees list is a good maximum point to get to, keep the wife happy and trim back those sails. Have fun Barrie
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David
What "they" say
Well, depends who is on board! I've read that about 20 degrees of heeling is optimal because that's the point where you've lengthened your water line of the boat but still have the rudder somewhat centered. So, according to the ASA book I have, that's where you should make the best boat speed. Now, that being said, if I heel over 25 degrees my wife and youngest freak out and start looking for the exit door. When I'm out with my oldest, we generally try to keep her heeled over around 20 - 25 just because it's such a rush. I've seen plenty of smaller ballasted boats put a rail down and pop back up neatly, but my Hunter 22 rounds up into the wind before I can get her over that far. What type of boat are you sailing? Have fun, and remember to throw in a reef instead of letting out sail, it's more fun that way. David (Sea Monkeys)
Well, depends who is on board! I've read that about 20 degrees of heeling is optimal because that's the point where you've lengthened your water line of the boat but still have the rudder somewhat centered. So, according to the ASA book I have, that's where you should make the best boat speed. Now, that being said, if I heel over 25 degrees my wife and youngest freak out and start looking for the exit door. When I'm out with my oldest, we generally try to keep her heeled over around 20 - 25 just because it's such a rush. I've seen plenty of smaller ballasted boats put a rail down and pop back up neatly, but my Hunter 22 rounds up into the wind before I can get her over that far. What type of boat are you sailing? Have fun, and remember to throw in a reef instead of letting out sail, it's more fun that way. David (Sea Monkeys)
Flat is Fast
Heel is inevitable when on the wind, but although heeling way over may feel fast, flast is usually faster. It is true that you typically get more waterline when heeled, but you lose the angle of attack, and often times weather helm increases (thereby braking with the rudder to keep the boat down). Setting optimal speed aside, keel boats won't "tip over" in almost any wind speed (wave action aside), since the wind spills out of the sail the farther over you go. The keel's weight will pop the boat back up (as soon as the rudder comes close to the surface, most boats round up anyway). Not dangerous, but not efficient either. Have fun experimenting! Trevor
Heel is inevitable when on the wind, but although heeling way over may feel fast, flast is usually faster. It is true that you typically get more waterline when heeled, but you lose the angle of attack, and often times weather helm increases (thereby braking with the rudder to keep the boat down). Setting optimal speed aside, keel boats won't "tip over" in almost any wind speed (wave action aside), since the wind spills out of the sail the farther over you go. The keel's weight will pop the boat back up (as soon as the rudder comes close to the surface, most boats round up anyway). Not dangerous, but not efficient either. Have fun experimenting! Trevor
Consider balance
Keelboats are generally more efficient when heeled over a bit. Focus as much on how well the boat feels in terms of the helm pressure as the heeling degrees. Note that the rudder benefits from a little bit of loading as it will create lift just as the keel does. But, more is not better. The pressure can increase until you have excess drag, or worse yet, spin out as the rudder stalls and the water flow cavitates. Adjust your main to keep the helm under control, the boat heeled to a point where you have "some" helm pressure, but the rudder responds well. Notice how when you heel over, the helm should load up. As this happens, ease the main down a bit via the traveller and sail a bit higher into the wind. Untilmately, it is a feel thing. Consider hitching a ride on a racing boat and quiz the main trimmer and driver how they work together to keep the boat moving well and on her feet. Much to learn from good driver/main trimming teams. Hope this helps.
Keelboats are generally more efficient when heeled over a bit. Focus as much on how well the boat feels in terms of the helm pressure as the heeling degrees. Note that the rudder benefits from a little bit of loading as it will create lift just as the keel does. But, more is not better. The pressure can increase until you have excess drag, or worse yet, spin out as the rudder stalls and the water flow cavitates. Adjust your main to keep the helm under control, the boat heeled to a point where you have "some" helm pressure, but the rudder responds well. Notice how when you heel over, the helm should load up. As this happens, ease the main down a bit via the traveller and sail a bit higher into the wind. Untilmately, it is a feel thing. Consider hitching a ride on a racing boat and quiz the main trimmer and driver how they work together to keep the boat moving well and on her feet. Much to learn from good driver/main trimming teams. Hope this helps.
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Russell Egge
Gusty Winds!
While I agree with everyone regarding keeping the boat flat with a nice constant wind, it is an entirely different matter when you have a gusty day. On those gusty days, we try to balance the desire to have speed most of the time, and the desire to hang on during the gusts. You learn to anticipate them, and turn off the wind to overcome the desire of the boat to turn into the wind. How far can you go and yet not go over. Each boat is different, however assuming you have a keelboat (not water ballast) we have been to 40-50 degrees when caught in a monster gust this past Saturday that read 62 knots. Not for the faint of heart, but wat a kick ass ride. Russell
While I agree with everyone regarding keeping the boat flat with a nice constant wind, it is an entirely different matter when you have a gusty day. On those gusty days, we try to balance the desire to have speed most of the time, and the desire to hang on during the gusts. You learn to anticipate them, and turn off the wind to overcome the desire of the boat to turn into the wind. How far can you go and yet not go over. Each boat is different, however assuming you have a keelboat (not water ballast) we have been to 40-50 degrees when caught in a monster gust this past Saturday that read 62 knots. Not for the faint of heart, but wat a kick ass ride. Russell
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David Foster
Handling gusts
Barrie and others are right - 15 degrees is a good constant maximum. a little more in a gust is OK. In order of actions for a gust: 1. Head up. The increase in real wind speed moves the apparent wind aft, and winning ground to windward is almost always a good thing. 2. Flatten the main. Tighten the outhaul, halyard, cunningham, vang and adjustable backstay if you have them. 3. Ease the traveler in the gust. 4. Ease the mainsheet in a gust. 5. Reef the main and then the jib. On 3. and 4, recover as the gust eases. Use sail tuning to keep the rudder action mild. Hauling hard on the rudder creates incredible drag. Got to practice most of the above in the Lake Erie Islands and Sandusky Bay over the weekend. Most of our sailing was at or above hull speed (6-6.5 knots) for over 4 hours of sailing on Sunday and Monday. Even beat a 37 foot cutter on a 10 mile leg of close reaching! David Lady Lillie
Barrie and others are right - 15 degrees is a good constant maximum. a little more in a gust is OK. In order of actions for a gust: 1. Head up. The increase in real wind speed moves the apparent wind aft, and winning ground to windward is almost always a good thing. 2. Flatten the main. Tighten the outhaul, halyard, cunningham, vang and adjustable backstay if you have them. 3. Ease the traveler in the gust. 4. Ease the mainsheet in a gust. 5. Reef the main and then the jib. On 3. and 4, recover as the gust eases. Use sail tuning to keep the rudder action mild. Hauling hard on the rudder creates incredible drag. Got to practice most of the above in the Lake Erie Islands and Sandusky Bay over the weekend. Most of our sailing was at or above hull speed (6-6.5 knots) for over 4 hours of sailing on Sunday and Monday. Even beat a 37 foot cutter on a 10 mile leg of close reaching! David Lady Lillie
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Joe
flat is fast only if...
... you are on plane. If your boat is designed with a planing hull, such as a laser or 49'er, then keeping her flat is very important to boat speed and control. Other designs usually perform better with some heeling. Since you don't disclose the type of boat you sail, and since your question indicates a bit about your sailing experience I'd say re-read Raka man's post then talk to other owners of boats similar to yours for more boat handling and trimming insight. On a small boat, in gusty conditions, such as you might find on a lake or bay, never cleat the main sheet. Use the traveller to balance the helm and the main to dump air quickly. For my boat, Cat 27, 10-20 degrees is okay. If I feel the rudder consistantly loading up too much, it's time to make some adjustments.
... you are on plane. If your boat is designed with a planing hull, such as a laser or 49'er, then keeping her flat is very important to boat speed and control. Other designs usually perform better with some heeling. Since you don't disclose the type of boat you sail, and since your question indicates a bit about your sailing experience I'd say re-read Raka man's post then talk to other owners of boats similar to yours for more boat handling and trimming insight. On a small boat, in gusty conditions, such as you might find on a lake or bay, never cleat the main sheet. Use the traveller to balance the helm and the main to dump air quickly. For my boat, Cat 27, 10-20 degrees is okay. If I feel the rudder consistantly loading up too much, it's time to make some adjustments.
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Les Murray
Heeling
I have found on my Cat 36 that 10 to 20 degrees of heel is pretty normal and provides a good balance on the helm. Once I start pushing beyond 20 degrees I find I am fighting weather helm too much and it is time to reef. This is usually around 18-20 kts of wind. If you are just getting hit with occasional gusts but are otherwise staying in that range, then just dumping the traveler or heading up during the gust will keep you on your feet. Of course, if the admiral says you are heeling too much better put that reef in to keep things more comfy. Fair Winds, Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
I have found on my Cat 36 that 10 to 20 degrees of heel is pretty normal and provides a good balance on the helm. Once I start pushing beyond 20 degrees I find I am fighting weather helm too much and it is time to reef. This is usually around 18-20 kts of wind. If you are just getting hit with occasional gusts but are otherwise staying in that range, then just dumping the traveler or heading up during the gust will keep you on your feet. Of course, if the admiral says you are heeling too much better put that reef in to keep things more comfy. Fair Winds, Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
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Steve G
If you can
deal with 20-25 degrees of heel during a gust, you'll find you can head up a bit, since the apparent wind shifts aft. Use this to gain some headway, and you might avoid having to come about as much. Don't get too aggressive, easing the traveller, tightening the vang etc is all good advice, but if you have to deal with gusts, you might as well benefit a little.
deal with 20-25 degrees of heel during a gust, you'll find you can head up a bit, since the apparent wind shifts aft. Use this to gain some headway, and you might avoid having to come about as much. Don't get too aggressive, easing the traveller, tightening the vang etc is all good advice, but if you have to deal with gusts, you might as well benefit a little.
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Russell Egge
Head Up?
While I understand heading up if you are close hauled, would you suggest the same approach if on a beam reach? We were out in some serious puffs on Saturday on a beam reach, heading up in a guest was what I was trying to avoid. (rounding up) Russell
While I understand heading up if you are close hauled, would you suggest the same approach if on a beam reach? We were out in some serious puffs on Saturday on a beam reach, heading up in a guest was what I was trying to avoid. (rounding up) Russell
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Steve G
Sorry, should have explained
myself better. Yes, I meant heading up when close hauled, like when you're on a port tack and wish you were 25 yards to port of your present position so you could keep a more comfortable distance from a ledge etc. Only do this on a beam reach if your know-it-all sister-in-law is on the leeward side and you want to see her eyes pop out of their sockets.
myself better. Yes, I meant heading up when close hauled, like when you're on a port tack and wish you were 25 yards to port of your present position so you could keep a more comfortable distance from a ledge etc. Only do this on a beam reach if your know-it-all sister-in-law is on the leeward side and you want to see her eyes pop out of their sockets.
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