Friends, I've searched the forums to no avail and that I could not find an answer gives me concern enough to stop before I go any further. Simply, I am looking at buying a 25 foot sloop with a swing keel that is a bit of a project boat. Most of the obvious issues/problems are relatively easily fixed, but I am concerned with one issue and I humbly ask your advice. The boat has been in the water for several years, unattended, here on the Middle Chesapeake. There is quite a bit of algae growing on the bottom and several healthy barnacles along the water line. The price of the boat (and it's distance from a lift) makes the cost of a haulout prohibitive. The boat's location does not lend well to an in water inspection either. The interior is bone dry, the boat does not sit low in the water, and other than a few years of benign neglect, is in pretty good shape. My question is, if I were to get the boat sailing again (it needs sails and some rigging and the motor tuned at the least) and then get it to the marina and it is pulled out and then discovered that bottom is fully covered with barnacles, is it possible to ever get the bottom clean again? I know about high pressure sprayers and muriatic acid and of course our friend the orbital sander, but can a boat get so covered on the bottom that it is too far gone to save? Thanks in advance, Tom
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Bad News
If it is been really neglected and has bad buildup on the bottom from been left in water a long time it could be a night mare getting it dry and sanding. I am no expert and maybe some one knowing more could tell you that the problems that the hull could be beyond help,if it was out of the water it would be easier to check for water soaked hull. If left in water without proper bottom painting would mean more than sanding and forget acid and pressure washer is for mild slime every year or two,get out the heavy equipment. Yes it's possible it's a bigger job than you would want to get into,could be very costly. Go swimming and see the bottom hard crust before buying. Nick
If it is been really neglected and has bad buildup on the bottom from been left in water a long time it could be a night mare getting it dry and sanding. I am no expert and maybe some one knowing more could tell you that the problems that the hull could be beyond help,if it was out of the water it would be easier to check for water soaked hull. If left in water without proper bottom painting would mean more than sanding and forget acid and pressure washer is for mild slime every year or two,get out the heavy equipment. Yes it's possible it's a bigger job than you would want to get into,could be very costly. Go swimming and see the bottom hard crust before buying. Nick
My $.02
It might help to know the year, make and model boat you are considering buying. It might also help to know when the hull was actually last painted and with what type and brand of paint (hard or soft) was used. I have always done my own bottom jobs on my current 27' Tartan (1967) for the last 5 years. My boat has spent several seasons in the LI Sound (salt water) and the last 3 in the Hudson River (brackish as it is still tidal). I have learned a good bit by doing the work myself. I also consider the hull a pretty important part of the boat as it is the part that keeps the water on the outside. A few bad paint jobs (unevenly mixed paint, not enough paint etc.) have proven to me that a lot of growth can occur in salt water over one season in the Sound. I have become better at doing the bottom while in the Hudson (probably more like the Chesapeake in salinity). It is not so difficult to prep even a fouled bottom for painting if you can get the boat on the hard (up on land) for a month or so to let it dry out and give you a chance to scrape off the barnacles. When the boat first comes out it should be given a good power washing to get as much slime and growth off. Any live barnacles may resist the power sprayer and will be easier to scrape off once they die after a few days. Unless you plan on applying an epoxy barrier coat (doesn't sound like you need to as you said it was 'bone dry') I would not rely on sanding to get off any barnacle residue. You can scrape it off with an appropriate scraper or tool of your choice. It takes a lot of elbow grease but is not an impossible job. I have a friend who keeps his boat in Mayo, MD and he had a local yard bottom paint his boat for $10/foot. It might cost more if the bottom is in bad shape to begin with. You will want to factor the 'cost' of the bottom job into your offering price for the boat as well as the other items you mentioned ('sails, some rigging and motor tune up' (inboard or outboard?)). It sounds to me that the price for this boat should be pretty low and that $1K might even be a lot since it does not seem to have sails and all its rigging. On the other hand, with some sweat equity you could end up with a sailboat that is appropriate for the Chesapeake. Remember though that the purchase price is only the entry fee to the wonderful world of boating. People on the Chesapeake and its rivers leave their boats in the water because it is cheaper than hauling out for the winter, and because they can. Up here we have to haul out and it allows us to check and work on our hulls yearly. Let us know what year, make and model you are considering please. My boat website below. Good luck.
It might help to know the year, make and model boat you are considering buying. It might also help to know when the hull was actually last painted and with what type and brand of paint (hard or soft) was used. I have always done my own bottom jobs on my current 27' Tartan (1967) for the last 5 years. My boat has spent several seasons in the LI Sound (salt water) and the last 3 in the Hudson River (brackish as it is still tidal). I have learned a good bit by doing the work myself. I also consider the hull a pretty important part of the boat as it is the part that keeps the water on the outside. A few bad paint jobs (unevenly mixed paint, not enough paint etc.) have proven to me that a lot of growth can occur in salt water over one season in the Sound. I have become better at doing the bottom while in the Hudson (probably more like the Chesapeake in salinity). It is not so difficult to prep even a fouled bottom for painting if you can get the boat on the hard (up on land) for a month or so to let it dry out and give you a chance to scrape off the barnacles. When the boat first comes out it should be given a good power washing to get as much slime and growth off. Any live barnacles may resist the power sprayer and will be easier to scrape off once they die after a few days. Unless you plan on applying an epoxy barrier coat (doesn't sound like you need to as you said it was 'bone dry') I would not rely on sanding to get off any barnacle residue. You can scrape it off with an appropriate scraper or tool of your choice. It takes a lot of elbow grease but is not an impossible job. I have a friend who keeps his boat in Mayo, MD and he had a local yard bottom paint his boat for $10/foot. It might cost more if the bottom is in bad shape to begin with. You will want to factor the 'cost' of the bottom job into your offering price for the boat as well as the other items you mentioned ('sails, some rigging and motor tune up' (inboard or outboard?)). It sounds to me that the price for this boat should be pretty low and that $1K might even be a lot since it does not seem to have sails and all its rigging. On the other hand, with some sweat equity you could end up with a sailboat that is appropriate for the Chesapeake. Remember though that the purchase price is only the entry fee to the wonderful world of boating. People on the Chesapeake and its rivers leave their boats in the water because it is cheaper than hauling out for the winter, and because they can. Up here we have to haul out and it allows us to check and work on our hulls yearly. Let us know what year, make and model you are considering please. My boat website below. Good luck.
Walk Away Quickly!
"The price of the boat (and it's distance from a lift) makes the cost of a haulout prohibitive. The boat's location does not lend well to an in water inspection either." Current bottom repaint at a yard in my area is $31.00/ft. That's without scraping, sealing or sanding.. Walk Away Quickly! Better Yet, RUN!
"The price of the boat (and it's distance from a lift) makes the cost of a haulout prohibitive. The boat's location does not lend well to an in water inspection either." Current bottom repaint at a yard in my area is $31.00/ft. That's without scraping, sealing or sanding.. Walk Away Quickly! Better Yet, RUN!
Thanks for the advice!
Wow, thanks for the quick and insightful replies. The boat is an '82 Catalina 25 swing keel. The bottom was painted and still looks okay toward the stern. I have no idea of type of bottom paint used. However, ANY barnacle growth worries me after having a boat on the Gulf of Mexico and seeing how fast marine growth develops. The boat has been in and out of the water (mostly in, I presume) for at least two years. The last year the boat was registered with the state was back in'03. The current owner doesn't know (or will not say) much about the past of the boat. It has an outboard kicker that has been dry-stored for a few years and is in good shape. I am worried about the "pox" and the condition of the swing keel in addition the time involved to clean the hull. Perhaps my dad was right: "Son, never buy a boat in the water." Thanks for your advice!
Wow, thanks for the quick and insightful replies. The boat is an '82 Catalina 25 swing keel. The bottom was painted and still looks okay toward the stern. I have no idea of type of bottom paint used. However, ANY barnacle growth worries me after having a boat on the Gulf of Mexico and seeing how fast marine growth develops. The boat has been in and out of the water (mostly in, I presume) for at least two years. The last year the boat was registered with the state was back in'03. The current owner doesn't know (or will not say) much about the past of the boat. It has an outboard kicker that has been dry-stored for a few years and is in good shape. I am worried about the "pox" and the condition of the swing keel in addition the time involved to clean the hull. Perhaps my dad was right: "Son, never buy a boat in the water." Thanks for your advice!
Dude, the Chesapeake is not the Gulf of Mexico
Also, the guy from CA - KnotFoundering has a 16.5" boat which is probably dry sailed or on a trailer most of the time (eg., his hull is always clean - no offense intended KnotFoundering as I still also own small boats like yours - a 14' and and 19' sailboat, if you check my profile). I had MAJOR barnacle buildup on my 19' Lightning last season as there was no real anti fouling paint (the boat had previously been 'dry sailed') and I moored it in salt water and the barnacles built up to an incredible degree - still not chucking the boat because of that. Lots of elbow grease will get that off (without sanding) and I will repaint it and keep it in salt water once again. Landsend has it about right: it will cost money and time to fix each year (as long as it is worth it to you) and pay for the off season costs. Seadaddler has recently retired and bought a brand new boat and probably pays others to take care of his own bottom jobs. Sorry if I am misreading any of your perspectives. Frankly, I am glad to hear that it costs $31/foot of boat for just painting in CA, KnotFoundering as I do a lot more than just re-paint every year and have a boat partner I should bill for my services. $10/foot is just too damn cheap for the nice job I have been doing on my 27' boat and we even won a race at our club and part of that is due to having a clean bottom. I love 'classic plastic' sailboats and even like woodies but I am not that crazy (or rich enough) to bother owning one. A 1982' sailboat is 15 years younger than my 27' sailboat and should otherwise be in pretty good shape. Get them to knock down the price for restoring the hull. Even if the swing keel/centerboard is stuck due to barnacles you can get it unstuck again with the proper tools. You need to find a piece of metal that will fit in the slot and crunch out all the growth without severely damaging the slot. All it takes is elbow grease and having the boat on the hard for long enough to do it. Check the prices of comparable Catalina 25' swing keels on the web that are ready to sail and go. Figure out how and how much money it will take you to get the boat to someplace you can work on it and deduct your start up cost from the asking price of a ready-to-wear C25. The previous owner (PO) should end up owning you money if my thinking is right. You need: sails, boom(? - you did not specify what rigging is missing), new battery, engine tune up (and a hole lot of other things to make your trip to the haul out site possible - hand held GPS and VHF would be nice). I see no reason that the hull of a 1982 Catalina 25' should have blisters in it other then it has been left in the water for X number of years. If you are serious about this then you should get a mask and snorkel and dive the bottom of the boat to really figure out what is going on down there. You should try to scrape off the sea weed and slime a few hours before you even attempt to look at it while looking for blistering or bulges in the hull surface. Owning a boat is a labor of love or an expense of a lot of money if you are willing to pay people to do it for you. I do not know your circumstances but if you want to do it on the cheap you might be able to get the PO to sell it for real cheap (say $500) as he already owes back dues to his marina (cost mounting every month) and just wants to get rid of it and reduce his monthly/yearly costs since he ain't using it anyway. An example: my friend who keeps his boat in Mayo, MD recently sold his Hunter 25.5 for around $2500 but it was in good working order with sails, rigging and working engine. It will cost you about $2+K to get some used sails and re-do the bottom if you do it yourself. There are a lot of boats out there that you can look at so I should not be so dismissive of those that recommend the "run, don't walk" attitude. It is ultimately your own decision. It does not sound like a bad boat though and might be worth pursuing if you are willing to put the time and energy into learning a lot about your new (old) vessel. We (as a group) paid $4K for our 1967 Tartan 27' over 5 years ago. It was in sail away condition but continues to require yearly maintenance that is easily $1K per year, plus upgrades. Do you have a marina or anchorage in back of your house that will cost under $1K per year? Advice is, as always, cheap. Your mileage will vary. Good luck.
Also, the guy from CA - KnotFoundering has a 16.5" boat which is probably dry sailed or on a trailer most of the time (eg., his hull is always clean - no offense intended KnotFoundering as I still also own small boats like yours - a 14' and and 19' sailboat, if you check my profile). I had MAJOR barnacle buildup on my 19' Lightning last season as there was no real anti fouling paint (the boat had previously been 'dry sailed') and I moored it in salt water and the barnacles built up to an incredible degree - still not chucking the boat because of that. Lots of elbow grease will get that off (without sanding) and I will repaint it and keep it in salt water once again. Landsend has it about right: it will cost money and time to fix each year (as long as it is worth it to you) and pay for the off season costs. Seadaddler has recently retired and bought a brand new boat and probably pays others to take care of his own bottom jobs. Sorry if I am misreading any of your perspectives. Frankly, I am glad to hear that it costs $31/foot of boat for just painting in CA, KnotFoundering as I do a lot more than just re-paint every year and have a boat partner I should bill for my services. $10/foot is just too damn cheap for the nice job I have been doing on my 27' boat and we even won a race at our club and part of that is due to having a clean bottom. I love 'classic plastic' sailboats and even like woodies but I am not that crazy (or rich enough) to bother owning one. A 1982' sailboat is 15 years younger than my 27' sailboat and should otherwise be in pretty good shape. Get them to knock down the price for restoring the hull. Even if the swing keel/centerboard is stuck due to barnacles you can get it unstuck again with the proper tools. You need to find a piece of metal that will fit in the slot and crunch out all the growth without severely damaging the slot. All it takes is elbow grease and having the boat on the hard for long enough to do it. Check the prices of comparable Catalina 25' swing keels on the web that are ready to sail and go. Figure out how and how much money it will take you to get the boat to someplace you can work on it and deduct your start up cost from the asking price of a ready-to-wear C25. The previous owner (PO) should end up owning you money if my thinking is right. You need: sails, boom(? - you did not specify what rigging is missing), new battery, engine tune up (and a hole lot of other things to make your trip to the haul out site possible - hand held GPS and VHF would be nice). I see no reason that the hull of a 1982 Catalina 25' should have blisters in it other then it has been left in the water for X number of years. If you are serious about this then you should get a mask and snorkel and dive the bottom of the boat to really figure out what is going on down there. You should try to scrape off the sea weed and slime a few hours before you even attempt to look at it while looking for blistering or bulges in the hull surface. Owning a boat is a labor of love or an expense of a lot of money if you are willing to pay people to do it for you. I do not know your circumstances but if you want to do it on the cheap you might be able to get the PO to sell it for real cheap (say $500) as he already owes back dues to his marina (cost mounting every month) and just wants to get rid of it and reduce his monthly/yearly costs since he ain't using it anyway. An example: my friend who keeps his boat in Mayo, MD recently sold his Hunter 25.5 for around $2500 but it was in good working order with sails, rigging and working engine. It will cost you about $2+K to get some used sails and re-do the bottom if you do it yourself. There are a lot of boats out there that you can look at so I should not be so dismissive of those that recommend the "run, don't walk" attitude. It is ultimately your own decision. It does not sound like a bad boat though and might be worth pursuing if you are willing to put the time and energy into learning a lot about your new (old) vessel. We (as a group) paid $4K for our 1967 Tartan 27' over 5 years ago. It was in sail away condition but continues to require yearly maintenance that is easily $1K per year, plus upgrades. Do you have a marina or anchorage in back of your house that will cost under $1K per year? Advice is, as always, cheap. Your mileage will vary. Good luck.
Find trailer?
Can you find a trailer and do work yourself? My marina is in Tampa Bay and I see some boats going to boat yard in bad shape, some even have oysters. They come back looking really good. In fact my boat was in bad shape, now looking at it you would never know.
Can you find a trailer and do work yourself? My marina is in Tampa Bay and I see some boats going to boat yard in bad shape, some even have oysters. They come back looking really good. In fact my boat was in bad shape, now looking at it you would never know.
Many thanks, again
Once again, I am overwhelmed at the advice offered. Thank you all very much. I have the time and ability (and desire, oddly enough) to do the bottom work myself and I also have the money to pay to get it done. What I don't want is to buy a boat that can't be cleaned. Sounds like it can be cleaned, provided enough elbow grease and/or Benjamins are applied. I can work with that. Thanks again for your valuable insight and advice. Any other tidbits to be aware of buying a "neglected" but otherwise beautiful boat? Tom
Once again, I am overwhelmed at the advice offered. Thank you all very much. I have the time and ability (and desire, oddly enough) to do the bottom work myself and I also have the money to pay to get it done. What I don't want is to buy a boat that can't be cleaned. Sounds like it can be cleaned, provided enough elbow grease and/or Benjamins are applied. I can work with that. Thanks again for your valuable insight and advice. Any other tidbits to be aware of buying a "neglected" but otherwise beautiful boat? Tom
Just Painted
Just gave it a paint job the other day,everyone in my yard was painting their bottoms and the yard seem to look the other way so I did not ask and did after they left it's a new boat and did not take much work so what the hell I gave it some bottom paint and also spent the week cleaning the hull and polishing and waxing per Main Sail advice. Yes we also haul every winter so I have never let the bottom get bad but have seen others put weeks trying to get the bottom clean that the yards here get you in trouble with them. I am retired and even before I stopped working did all my own work not just boats,so being retired gives me even more time to enjoy work and play. Some yards don't allow work on bottom sanding and painting but if you can do it go for it and enjoy the boat. Nick
Just gave it a paint job the other day,everyone in my yard was painting their bottoms and the yard seem to look the other way so I did not ask and did after they left it's a new boat and did not take much work so what the hell I gave it some bottom paint and also spent the week cleaning the hull and polishing and waxing per Main Sail advice. Yes we also haul every winter so I have never let the bottom get bad but have seen others put weeks trying to get the bottom clean that the yards here get you in trouble with them. I am retired and even before I stopped working did all my own work not just boats,so being retired gives me even more time to enjoy work and play. Some yards don't allow work on bottom sanding and painting but if you can do it go for it and enjoy the boat. Nick
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