How fix rudder play from oblong hole in rudder tube?

Jun 11, 2020
32
Hunter 29.5 Northport
Last year was our first with our 1994 Hunter 29.5. We noticed that when steering in one direction there was play when steering back in the opposite direction. So for example, if you were steering to starboard and then tried to steer to port, you had to turn the helm about an eighth of a turn before feeling tension again in the helm. Then the same when you steered back to starboard.

After doing some looking I can see what is causing it. At the top of the rudder tube (I think that's the right terminology) the bolt hole where the shaft connects to the quadrant has gone oblong (see pic and video attached).

Is this a bearing or collar that can be replaced? I can't see how deep this fiberglass tube goes. If I take the bolt out, do you think I can epoxy in some type of collar with a clean hole?
 

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Sep 20, 2014
1,328
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
Looks like that is a split collar. Can you pull apart the collar and find out why it doesn't clamp tight?
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,060
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Looks like the thru bolt has sheared and the hole is elongated. One way to fix it would be to epoxy a metal sleeve into the tube (maybe oblong side only) then coat it with a layer or two of glass then redrill the hole and put in a new bolt. Damage was most likely a result of releasing the helm while running in reverse at a few knots.
 
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jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,879
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Perhaps that is the problem.

Before surgery you may wish to examine the quadrant and the linkage as you say it is a helm you turn.

The quadrant is usually clamped onto the rudder tube. The tension of the clamp is intended to grip the rudder tube. There is often a through bolt as part of the quadrant added to this system. The quadrant is not intended to slip and rely on the through bolt.

Additionally the cables, or chain lineage on the quadrant and helm assembly should not be so sloppy that there is 1/8 turn of the helm. Does this happen when you change course in both directions?
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,060
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
OOPS, I didn't see that too well.. John is right, the steering quadrant needs to be split and maybe shimmed to tighten it.. The bolt is not sheared as I thought.
 
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JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,751
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Is this a bearing
Yes, the whitish colored circle is the upper bearing. Normally made of UHMW.
Once your rudder is positioned Midships, you may be able to fill the Upper Bearing with some type of hardening filler
Jim...
 
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Jun 11, 2020
32
Hunter 29.5 Northport
Ahh, so you guys are saying the bolt should not be the primary means of attachment between the upper bearing and the quadrant? So the upper bearing in my video should not be rotating freely like that?
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,751
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
If you remove that thru bolt your rudder will drop out of the boat. Sometimes it will not drop since the Quardrant to bearing surface maybe fused by time.
Jim...
 
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JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,751
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
This is what a new Quadrant looks like and the upper bearing it tight fit to that Quadrant

5:8ths bolt.jpeg
 
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JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,751
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
From your owners manual , this might show a better picture.

Hunter_gen_52976033.jpg
 
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Oct 26, 2010
2,115
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
@kjdoyle1 If that is a fiberglass shaft (not shaft tube, but actually the shaft) IMHO you are about to lose your rudder!!! :yikes: If you are using the boat, STOP. Call Edson, they are very helpful. email the pictures to them. They will advise. If you are in the water alongside of a pier don't take the boat out.

I just replaced my rudder so have some first hand knowledge as so should @JamesG161. I may be wrong, but I'd get professional advice directly from Edson (who makes your steering) before I used that boat.

Rather than Fiberglass, my rudder shaft is stainless steel, but otherwise the setup looks exactly the same. The radial drive (the big Aluminum disk that attaches to the steering cables) is what should clamp tightly on the shaft and it is designed to turn the shaft, and hence the rudder. The fiberglass thing you are seeing turning that the bolt goes through is the shaft itself, not a bearing. There is no bearing at that point. The bearing is immediatly below the aluminum disk. If you go to the Edson site and click on the quadrant/radial section you'll see that the radial drive is supposed to be machined to within a few thousandth of an inch of the shaft. The turning is done by the clamping force of the radial drive, not the bolt. Although they don't say it, the bolt is there as a "backup" but primarily to allow something for the emergency rudder to fit onto to turn the shaft and hence the rudder. The shaft and the radial drive (the disck that the steering cables attach to) should move in lockstep, regardless of the bolt or not. It is obviously not clamped tigh which means that without the bolt, as @JamesG161 said will drop right out the bottom of the bolt.

It looks very much like the fiberglass shaft above the bolt where you can see the elongated hole is cracked! So, if you thing about it, with the little or no clamping force of the radial drive, the only thing supporting the shaft is the very small amount of fiberglass that is above the bolt and on at least one side that little bit of fiberglass is compromised.

FAILURE ANALYSIS: This has probably been that way for a long time. Since the the clamping force of the disk (radial drive) was to low to be secure to the shaft, the only thing turning the rudder shaft was the bolt pressing on either side of the fiberglass shaft each time you turned the rudder. Couple that with the tremendous force on the rudder, transferred to the fiberglass shaft and thence to the bolt each time you go to the stop when you are in reverse and loose grip on the shaft. It is pretty severe.



Your boat will probably not sink since the shaft tube extends well above the waterline.. You can even have the boat in the water with the shaft completely out of the boat. Some people have even removed the shaft while in the water with the aid of a diver and straps holding the rudder.
 
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Oct 26, 2010
2,115
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
From your owners manual , this might show a better picture.

View attachment 204296
@JamesG161 The upper bearing you are referring to is below the radial drive (the disk). The radial drive clamps directly to the shaft, not a bearing, and the bolt goes directly through the radial drive and the shaft. I am absolutly sure if that. I just put mine back together 2 weeks ago
 
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jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,879
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
@smokey73 Has a very good point.
Some Hunters, I have learned, were equipped with fiberglass rudder shafts. The newer ones are stainless.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,301
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Ahh, so you guys are saying the bolt should not be the primary means of attachment between the upper bearing and the quadrant? So the upper bearing in my video should not be rotating freely like that?
What I'm not understanding is the mechanism moving that upper bearing. Can you clarify that for me? What is the function of the cables that are visible in that video? None seem to move until the whole quadrant moves. The quadrant is moving once that internal bearing connects to the through bolt. I'm not understanding how this whole mechanism is working....

dj
 
Oct 26, 2010
2,115
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
@dLj Really good question. Hopefully the @kjdoyle1 will respond back soon. While this is only a guess, it looks like the boat is out of the water and somebody is turning the rudder from below by moving the the rudder itself by hand. There is really no other explanation that I can think of right now. If you are turning the wheel, the cables, through pulleys attached to the radial drive turn the radial drive. The clamping force of the radial drive then turns the shaft. There should no, zero, nadda, movement between the radial drive and the shaft and through bolt. They should all turn in lockstep.

PS: There could be a little "slop" when you turn the wheel before the radial drive starts to turn if the cables are loose but that is an adjustment that can be made.
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,751
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Ok guys there are two parts to the bearings

1) 2 on the Rudder shaft
2) 2 affixed to the boat

The Quadrant is precisely drilled with in ±.005 inches to match the Rudder Shaft. So the Quadrant could hold the rudder in the boat.
But...
The through bolt does makes sure it is Bolted to the boat. That bolt is used for the Emergency Tiller to turn the rudder.

@smokey73 his Quadrant it upside down when compared to our Hunters.;)

Jim...

PS: Look at my suggested Solution post#6
 
Oct 26, 2010
2,115
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
Ok guys there are two parts to the bearings

1) 2 on the Rudder shaft
2) 2 affixed to the boat

The Quadrant is precisely drilled with in ±.005 inches to match the Rudder Shaft. So the Quadrant could hold the rudder in the boat.
But...
The through bolt does makes sure it is Bolted to the boat. That bolt is used for the Emergency Tiller to turn the rudder.

@smokey73 his Quadrant it upside down when compared to our Hunters.;)

Jim...

PS: Look at my suggested Solution post#6
@JamesG161 Jim, his quadrant might be upside down compared to your's but it is EXACTLY like mine except that it appears he has a fiberglass rudder shaft. I think you have my number. Please give me a call.
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,751
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
If you look at his first picture you can see his rudder is Fiberglass where it is cracked.
So that crack in the rudder shaft caused the oblong wear.
You can fix that easily with out dropping the Rudder
Jim...
 
Jun 11, 2020
32
Hunter 29.5 Northport
@dLj in that video someone is below the boat (which is currently on stands) moving the rudder. However, when we are sailing the same effect happens when you are turning the helm wheel.

Ok, so it is making sense now. The rudder shaft is fiberglass and there is no longer any clamping force from the radial drive onto the shaft. I spoke with Edson and just emailed them the pics/videos. We will see what they say.

Thanks all.
 
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dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,301
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
@dLj in that video someone is below the boat (which is currently on stands) moving the rudder. However, when we are sailing the same effect happens when you are turning the helm wheel.

Ok, so it is making sense now. The rudder shaft is fiberglass and there is no longer any clamping force from the radial drive onto the shaft. I spoke with Edson and just emailed them the pics/videos. We will see what they say.

Thanks all.
Ah, yes that makes sense. I thought the boat was in the water, don't know why....

If that were my rudder - I'd want to drop it and look at all the bearings and the whole mechanism. I'd especially want to look at the condition of the rudder shaft that has such wear. It may be as simple as using a structural fill material, or you may have damages lower you may need to address. I certainly want to figure out why that sector is not clamping down on the shaft. Is it simply a problem of wear or loosening over time? Or are there other contributing factors such as bad bearings down below? You have the boat out now, now is the time to look...

dj