How Far is too Far?

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May 22, 2004
55
Hunter 170 Brewerton
Weekend winds here have been in the 10-20k range...oh well, won't learn if I don't go! Had one good scare so far and surprised I didn't go over. For now the jib stays furled in those conditions. I have 2 questions: Is it me or does pointing suffer sailing with Main only? Assuming ballast (me) is up on the windward rail & new style heavy centerboard, what can I watch for to know she's heeled too far and could go over? The books say excess heel is inefficient-understood-but it happens :) I plan to capsize and turtle for experience once the water is warmer but until then, thanks for comments. Joe
 
Apr 1, 2004
26
Hunter 170 Yorktown, VA
Round up

From my experience, the 170 will round up if you are on the windward rail. I have had a couple of times there are 2 of us, with jib out, in 10 or so knots that she wanted to round up. Mind you, this is with both of us leaning over the rail, and I could see the tip of the CB by looking down. As far as turtle - don't do it. You will NOT get her back up on your own. Knockdown, OTOH, that is not bad to recover from (hang on the CB). Just remember to loosen your jib and main sheets. John
 
Jun 3, 2004
33
Hunter 170 -
From my experience on others dingies, "too far" is when you attempt to recover from a gust and you drag the boom. If the boom drags the water its all over. This is assuming that you tip to lee. Tipping to windward is due to overcorrection or a massive "OH SHUCKS" (I sanitized the verbage). What makes it nice for the 170, and possibly the reason that is rounds up so nice versus blowing over, is that the boom is so high and relatively short. I have never really thought about that until just now... I guess that that is my theory and I am sticking to it!!! I have not tipped the 170 yet so I am not speaking from any deep and meaningful experience. I have broached it many times though and the end result is that it simply heads up and rolls back down. It is so much easier to clean out your pants when you are not heeling so much!!! So, what I would look for is simply how much air I have between the aft end of the boom and the surface of the water. Remember that by letting the main sheet out or turning into the wind, or the combination, (depowering) the distance will get shorter, if not only for an instance. If you are getting close to the water surface, I feel that I am at the limit. I hope this helps. I am looking forward to hearing other repsonses. Godspeed, Rusty
 

gball

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Jun 8, 2004
136
Hunter 170 Alachua, FL
Heel and mainsail-only pointing

Hi Joe, Good man on getting out there anyway, even though the winds are kickin'. First, a personal recent experience/aside; my wife and I were out on our 'usual' FL lake this past Saturday, having a great, relaxing sail in 5-10K winds. Suddenly blasts of 15-20 started heading our way and I made the call that we furl up the jib. My 'first (best) mate' quickly did it and we ended up going the rest of the day mail-only. So, to answer your first question, it's not just you, the 170 doesn't point as high with main alone. I came to this conclusion yet again (as mentioned above) just this weekend. Also, pure physics dictate that a jib and main work more efficiently together than a main alone-- airflow is accelerated as it passes around the jib, filling/powering the main more efficiently. But that said, pointing can be improved by a little rigging modification that I spied in Jobson's 'Sailing Fundementals'. A lone 170 is pictured fighting major weather helm, skipper hiked up on the gunwale, but the boat has a traveler/bridle at its stern. So I emailed San Diego Sailing Academy (who's boat this apparently was) about this rig and they promptly emailed back saying, yes, this mod helps her point higher. The only downer is that the bridle must be unhooked from either stern cleat whenever you want to swim off the transom--- but just in case you'd like the info, here's how you modify the sheeting (courtesy Mike Monastra, SDSA): --------------------- That photo is of our Hunter 170. We set up a bridle between the stern cleats for two reasons. End boom sheeting is mechanically better than mid boom sheeting, and when sailing close hauled, with a non-slipping bridle, the boom is sheeted closer to the centerline. It's just an old dinghy racing idea. All you have to do is get rid of your four to one mid boom sheeting. Use the mid boom bail for a small Harken block. On the end of the boom, install a small bail and use a Harken block with a dead end. Then tie a small length of line between the stern cleats. In the exact middle use another small Harken block. Tie the block to the exact middle so it does not travel. That way the mainsheet will draw from the centerline. If you've got it right, the leeward side of the bridle will be slack and the weather side will hold the bottom block aft in the middle of the boat. It's trick. You'll be able to sail the boat a lot higher. --------------- I'm going to try this mod sometime soon--- midboom sheeting just robs the 170 of pointing ability when closehauled. Never thought of the difference til I took another look at my dad's Laser-- it has a bridle as well, and I swear it points almost AT the wind before stalling. As far as how far is too far when heeling...I would say any angle of heel whereby a stronger puff (on top of the already strong breeze) would cause a loss of control or ability to counter with a harder hike, is too far. When I look down and see the centerboard trunk lapping at the surface, I know I don't want to push much farther. Also, one Hunter 170 owner has posted pics in the Pictures section of his 'hiking strap' rigging project. I might try this as well sometime--- installable just for when I'm sailing solo. My wife's adventurous, but the 170's responsiveness has scared her bigtime a couple times before. Another note on heeling: I have noticed heavy-duty weather helm though as I approach 'no return'...just letting the tiller go slightly brings the heeling down and the boat higher into the wind, but the rounding up causes loss of speed, obviously. It's a nice savior, though. Of course, during your capsize/turtle training, be sure you've sounded the water's depth. Obviously getting the inverted masthead stuck in the mud is embarrassing at least... Full sails, Mike G.
 
May 22, 2004
55
Hunter 170 Brewerton
Thanks to All

Really appreciate and enjoy the replies. Lots of great info, tips and tweaks (Mike G). Great stuff! Looking forward to getting out this Holiday weekend. End of the boom touching the water? CB trunk beginning to overflow? Nuts! Not there yet & will be a while (water temp) but can't wait to test/try. By the way, in a previous post I asked which Hobie float? Took advice of one reply and emailed Hunter. huntercomposite rep reply was 'Baby Bob' will do fine. Also says the the current 170's are kinda hard to knock down. Hmm...for now I'll Reef or Main only. Might use a big bumper for testing to see if I really need the Float. Joe
 

gball

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Jun 8, 2004
136
Hunter 170 Alachua, FL
Knockdown/mast float

Joe, Have heard that a dock fender works to prevent turtling. If you ever get that far over, let us know how well it works ;o) Yeah, Hunter Composite up north in CT??? is where it's at. Since they're the manufacturer of 'everything-Hunter' through the 216???? Encouraging that they call the current 170 hard to capsize. I may retro-fit to the 2004 board on my '99 yet. Just need to find $800. in coins under the couch! Have a great outting this weekend. My wife and I plan a holiday sail as well. Sending some 'warming-waters' your way (ours is almost unrefreshing at this point in the summer), Mike
 
Jun 3, 2004
33
Hunter 170 -
Traveler/Bridle Suggestion

Mike, Using your suggestion as a basis, I would humbly recommend the following modification to your excellant improvement idea. Use the existing Hunter supplied Harkin blocks for the blocks at the aft end of the boom as described below. Hang what is currently the lower Harkin Hexaratchet (with becket) from the newly installed bail on the aft of the boom. You will need to buy a shackle to mount this. Attach the the old upper block to the lower bridle as you had suggested. Now, as you had suggested, mount a new single block where the old upper used to mount and replace the old standing Hexaratchet with a standing single. Run the sheet from becket to block to block to block to block as is currently done utilizing the full purchase, then forward to boom to floor. Somewhere you will still want the ratchet action, either in the rear or forward. I guess I would try it in the rear to save a few bucks until it proved it doesn't work right. If it doesn't feel right, buy a standing Harkin single Hexaratchet and turn the ratcheting action off on the double. I suggest this as I believe that you will really miss the lost purchase by removing the 4:1, particularly on blustery days. As the whole purpose of this modification is to point higher, there will be considerable force on the sail and thus the sheet. The negetive to any of these rear mounting ideas is that the main sheet is going to get REALLY long if a 4:1 purchase is included in the rear of the boom versus amidship. I haven't measured it, but a 4:1 could resonably require about 70 feet of main sheet. Variations would include mounting the Hexaratchet with becket on the bridle and the double from above, but routing the sheet from becket to upper to lower to upper to midship thus creating a 3:1 versus 4:1 (eliminating 12 feet or so of main sheet). I guess it all depends on how much purchase one wants. Hope these ideas help. If anyone tries any of Mike's suggestions or these above, please report back. Godspeed, Rusty
 

gball

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Jun 8, 2004
136
Hunter 170 Alachua, FL
Traveler/bridle modifications

Rusty, Your suggestions are totally awesome (and I'll save money by not having to buy tons of new Harken single blocks--- although I'll have to lay-down for a new, longer mainsheet). Both the rachet action and the extra purchase are must-haves now that I think about it. You know, I never even appreciated the rachet action until you mentioned it! I'm sure I'd have noticed its absence though. This purchase setup will make the mainsheet tail loads managable on heavy days... I'd literally have needed a winch with my plan!! I will try retrofiting my 170 to the 4:1 bridle plan you suggest soon--- before the summer's out. Also, could you suggest the best way by which I can attach the bail on the stern end of the boom (for hanging the Harken Hex block)? The most I've done as far as drilling and 3M Marine Adhesive'ing EVER is to install a Windex 10 on the masthead... A load-bearing bail install will require uniform care and accuracy. Thanks, Rusty. Keep those comments coming... Mike G.
 
Jun 3, 2004
33
Hunter 170 -
Bail Mounting to Boom

Mike, The bail should be mounted to the boom using rivets (blind rivets or pop rivets). Check the mounting hole diameter of the bail, but I would put money on it that it is 1/8" (possibly 3/16"). Place the bail where you like it, drill the correct sized hole, push in a rivet and pull it using a rivet tool. The rivet tool will cut off the portion pulled at the correct spot. Mark, drill and rivet the rest of the mounting holes. Its very easy!!!! Don't let the rivet slection intimidate you, as they are sized by diameter and working (material) thickness. Use the proper diameter and a working thickness of .125" or so. This will be longer than needed and length is not at all important as the stub or excess will be on the inside of the boom. You will have extras when done, and longer rivets can be used somewhere. Cost for a rivet tool is about $25 at a hardware store, but an auto repair shop may let you use one for nothing. Alumimum rivets will work great. Cost a few bucks for a bag of 50 or so. Also, if you want to mount any type of mounts or fixtures to the hull, use PEEL Rivets vs blind/pop rivets. The peel rivet mushrooms out and provides a much greater bearing surface for the backside. This works well on soft or thin materials where access is not provided to the back of the material where a washer can be put over the rivet prior to pulling. Thanks for asking this as I need to rivet a clam cleat to my tiller. I have all the stuff down in my truck. I think that I will leave my desk and go do that now!!! Good Luck. Keep us posted. Godspeed, Rusty
 

gball

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Jun 8, 2004
136
Hunter 170 Alachua, FL
Rivets for stern boom bail

Rusty, thanks. Sounds like I shouldn't have let myself be intimidated about riveting. I assume you're adding a second clam cleat to the tiller for separate cleats for the rudder uphaul and downhaul lines? Have a great one, and I'll let everyone know how the 'project' performs. Mike G.
 
Jun 3, 2004
33
Hunter 170 -
Clam Cleats

Mike, Yeah, I need to put a new CL257 quick release on. I have had it since January (the new cleat) and have not taken the time to replace it. It is on now. By the way, in my last post I suggested maybe a .125" working length rivet. Measure what you need and round up. I am guessing that that may be close, but error on the long side. You could not go wrong with a .250". All the extra is rolled up on the inside of the boom. Heading up to the lake now. Be in the boat in 45 minutes!!! Enjoy the Holiday! Godspeed, Rusty
 

gball

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Jun 8, 2004
136
Hunter 170 Alachua, FL
Clam cleat rivets

Rusty, Ah, a fine Thursday afternoon/evening sail in the 170, eh? Life could be a whole lot worse-- nicely done. Re: rivets for the new aft bail on the boom-- my basic math is a little rusty but, .250" would be 1/4" to all us fraction-lovers, eh? Yeah, I'll just let extra rivet take up space inside the boom. While I'm on, I'll share my parts list for an upcoming (maybe this weekend) trip to West Marine: 1 Harken 233 cheek block for aft port side of boom (for reef line, led down from leech grommet) and forward to 1 Ronstan 2090 clam cleat...to be mounted near current mainsail outhaul clamcleat. Of course on the stbd side, 1 Ronstan RF94 bail/eyestrap for ender-knot for aft boom reef line, which will travel up and thru grommet and back down port side (as mentioned above). 1 Ronstan 1054 bail/eyestrap for mounting aft boom Hexi block (currently the block on 170's cockpit sole). Another clam cleat (same as above) to be mounted to mast, just below gooseneck, for tightening off luff reef line. And finally two Harken single blocks #023 for sole Harken swivel and above that on extant midboom bail. One other question on mounting a new single Harken block to the existing cockpit sole pivot/jam cleat housing--- Any special hardware needed for mounting a single Harken block (with shackle) to the standing swivel? I assume not, but thought there's a chance I need additional parts for this. Have a great holiday. Might get the 170 out this weekend, and at the very least, I'll make some measurements (and maybe modifications) here in the driveway if homebound. Best, Mike
 
Jun 3, 2004
33
Hunter 170 -
West Marine List

Mike, Your list looks complete. You will need to by one extra shackle to hang the block from the bail. As for the bails, Schaefer or Ronstan bails will work well and both are stocked at West Marine. The clamcleat for securing the reefing line at the mast could also be a regular nylon cleat if you would like, but I like your idea of a clamcleat. Might have to try replacing my cleat and see which way I like better. As for the standing block, everything should stay in place after removing the block... mount spring, and pin. You shouldn't need anything here, but this will require the above mentioned shackle as we are keeping the mount on the floor of the boat. I would buy a small bow shackle identical to the one that Hunter used on the upper block. While you are at West Marine, why don't you pick up a few parts to extend the Roller Furling Control Line to help with single handing. Pretty simple and cheap and very effective. I made a few changes to this and they really help. First, I mounted the Harkin Cam Matic cleat atop a one inch riser in it's current location. This allows it to actually be cleated and uncleated from the back of the boat. The factory angle of the furling line entering the Cam Matic is all wrong as set up factory, as the furling line comes out of the hull of the boat higher than the Cam Matic is currently mounted. Very difficult to engage. This 1 inch change in the angle does the ticket. I used a material called UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight "plastic"...Starbright?). Any material including wood will work fine. Make sure you have a Flairlead over this Cam Matic. Now I also extended the furling line, but I made it in 2 parts so a section can be removed when I have a "crew". This is going to be hard to explain, but try to follow me. When I single hand I want a line long enough to get to the back of the boat when the jib is unfurled. When I have a "crew" I want the line only long enough to clear the Cam Matic when the jib is unfurled. So...use the line that is currently on the furler, unfurl the jib and leave about 1 foot of line aft of the Cam Matic. Add a RWO Line End Stopper at this point and cut off any remaining line aft of the stopper. When you tie in the stopper, leave a 1" loop. Now get another piece of line, 6 feet or so long and put a small clasping hook on one end and a RWO Stopper a the other. When you single hand, hook this line, to the loop of the other, and it is extended. When you have a crew, unhook it. The line extension is not the neat concept, the riser is though. The stoppers make nice grab balls. Available at West Marine in a variety of colors. Buy a few for the uphaul and downhaul of the rudder also. A little project that I will try to get done this weeknd is routing the centerboard line back through a failead and into a Lance Cleat mounted toward the rear of the boat on the floor. I do not like the angle of the existing Clamleat. Good Luck with your "riveting" project. Godspeed, Rusty
 

gball

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Jun 8, 2004
136
Hunter 170 Alachua, FL
Other Modifications

Good suggestions all, Rusty. By the way, will the cheek block, clam cleats, and bails ALL attach via use of rivets? Or do some inherently require screws? I can't recall off hand. Also, I'm thinking of picking up a second cheek block for the boom, to be mounted directly behind the gooseneck. This would allow the fore reefing line to be led to the cheek and aft to a clam cleat, mounted on the boom INSTEAD of the on mast. This would prevent any cross-boom-to-mast tensioning when the sail is eased, for example, on a dead run. Does this make sense, or is sail-'preventer' tension to lee not an issue when a luff reef line is fully tensioned? You follow? Your furling line suggestion makes sense. I first need to just replace the stock '99 line with one that's a few feet longer. Best, Mike
 
Jun 3, 2004
33
Hunter 170 -
Rivets

Mike, Rivet anything that you want to rivet. I think on thin materials like masts, booms and plastic/fiberglass hulls, rivets would give a stonger and more secure bond than screws (the stress is loaded from the back of the material and over a larger surface area). Anything that I cannot get access to the back of, I rivet. I may be wrong here, but my logic is that bolts with washers and nuts are much stronger than screws (with reference to pulling out). Rivets must be stonger than screws also, particularly on the thin materials like we deal with on boats. Rivet away. I would buy only one size of rivet to mount all this stuff if possible. If a mounting hole is 1/8" and the rest are 3/16", drill out the 1/8" to make things easy. I would add that all I use are 3/16" rivets simply because I have a bunch of them of varying working lengths. This is important (obvious but it messed me up one day) ...When you buy the rivets, do not forget that the rivet must pass through whatever you want to mount, then the backing material. Don't forget to account for the depth of the material that you are mounting. Your bail is probably less than 1/16" where your Clamcleat will be about 1/4". Size your rivet for the deepest piece you want to mount...Buy the rivets LAST!! Your idea of mounting the clamcleat to the mast makes sense. I have not reefed much (twice), so I hope someone with more experience can add some comments. By the way, had a great afternoon/evening sail yesterday. Wind out of the east (which is backwards here), but nice and breezy. Still the same this morning. Maybe later today??? Godspeed, Rusty
 

gball

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Jun 8, 2004
136
Hunter 170 Alachua, FL
Rivet depths re: boom mouted bails/clam cleats

Rusty- A possible sail this evening too? Wow, you're definitely living right! I'm so glad you added rivet sizes (3/16) to your latest reply. That's what I'll look for. Hope to get the hardware at West Marine Sunday on our way home from the beach (St Augustine). Yeah, I've only reefed my 170s main three times in 5 months of ownership (twice two days straight in 15-20k on the intercoastal), but tying an ad hoc line from the luff cringle and around the gooseneck is just messy. Yet I wouldn't go as far as getting Harken's small boat single line reefing system. If anyone HAS put this system on a 170, let us know how it works. I do enough singlehanding where I feel the need to have simple and neat reefing available. My wife is becoming a master at jumping halyard, reefing the luff, furling the jib, etc. She used to complain that sailing is alot of work for a relaxing day on the water, but she's coming around. Also Rusty, would you send me your email addy, to gball72@yahoo.com ? Happy 4th, all. Mike
 
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