I have come across a beautifull old standard household toilet base (without the holding tank) and would like to mount it on our boat in place on the current manual marine head. Is there any way to convert the base for use in a marine application??? Looking past the hose diameter differences, I don't know if there is a electric pump that will give enough water flow to effectively flush the bowl. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Garry
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It could be done, but maybe not practically...
The hose diameter difference is the least of the problem. Unless it's European (European toilets have 4" discharge pipes), it's only 2" vs 1.5" for a marine toilet. Household toilets use water volume, gravity and centrifugal force to flush...everything goes down into the trap and is pushed back up and out the discharge...and it takes a minimum amount of water volume--at least 1.5 gallons--to accomplish that. Once it hits the sewer pipe in the house, it's all downhill from there, which is where gravity comes in. The flush water tank releases just the right amount of water to make it all happen without overflowing the bowl (unless the toilet is clogged). So there's no practical way to connect a pump to it--it would be VERY trickly to time it so that the water volume coming in doesn't exceed the flow out. If the holding tank is some distance from the toilet, there'd be no gravity helping the bowl contents to get to the tank. Connecting it to your onboard fresh water supply presents too much of a health hazard. So, bottom line: I wouldn't recommend trying to convert it. However, IF you could mount it directly above a holding tank, and IF you can provide a water supply to a flush water reservoir, it might work. Old fashioned toilets had separate tanks with pull chains high above the toilet--the height allows gravity to create the centrifugal force needed to flush the toilet. You can still buy those old fashioned tanks...I occasionally see them in "theme" restaurant ladies' rooms...and I can see only a couple of potential problems with installing this set up on a boat: 1. Can you mount the tank high enough to flush the toilet? 2. How much flush water is necessary to clean the bowl vs. the size of any tank you could put under the toilet? 3. Do you want to draw the flush water off your onboard supply, or install a pump to use raw water to refill the reservoir (both would require timers to control the volume)? 4. The bowl is gonna hold water...what happens in heavy seas or when you heel? And what about the flush water reservoir--is it gonna spill? IMHO, it would be kinda neat to do on a 60' trawler, but totally impractical on a sailboat...however, winter is upon us, and figuring out what might and might not work, then "field" testing it in your basement will give you something to do till spring.
The hose diameter difference is the least of the problem. Unless it's European (European toilets have 4" discharge pipes), it's only 2" vs 1.5" for a marine toilet. Household toilets use water volume, gravity and centrifugal force to flush...everything goes down into the trap and is pushed back up and out the discharge...and it takes a minimum amount of water volume--at least 1.5 gallons--to accomplish that. Once it hits the sewer pipe in the house, it's all downhill from there, which is where gravity comes in. The flush water tank releases just the right amount of water to make it all happen without overflowing the bowl (unless the toilet is clogged). So there's no practical way to connect a pump to it--it would be VERY trickly to time it so that the water volume coming in doesn't exceed the flow out. If the holding tank is some distance from the toilet, there'd be no gravity helping the bowl contents to get to the tank. Connecting it to your onboard fresh water supply presents too much of a health hazard. So, bottom line: I wouldn't recommend trying to convert it. However, IF you could mount it directly above a holding tank, and IF you can provide a water supply to a flush water reservoir, it might work. Old fashioned toilets had separate tanks with pull chains high above the toilet--the height allows gravity to create the centrifugal force needed to flush the toilet. You can still buy those old fashioned tanks...I occasionally see them in "theme" restaurant ladies' rooms...and I can see only a couple of potential problems with installing this set up on a boat: 1. Can you mount the tank high enough to flush the toilet? 2. How much flush water is necessary to clean the bowl vs. the size of any tank you could put under the toilet? 3. Do you want to draw the flush water off your onboard supply, or install a pump to use raw water to refill the reservoir (both would require timers to control the volume)? 4. The bowl is gonna hold water...what happens in heavy seas or when you heel? And what about the flush water reservoir--is it gonna spill? IMHO, it would be kinda neat to do on a 60' trawler, but totally impractical on a sailboat...however, winter is upon us, and figuring out what might and might not work, then "field" testing it in your basement will give you something to do till spring.
Peggie THANKS!!!
Thanks very much for your detailed reply. Unfortunately it is an old European toilet base, with a 4" discharge, that used to have a water tank overhead. The toilet is very old and is a detailed flow blue painted bowl inside and out. We have a 1925 36' classic yacht which has been fuly restored to it's original beauty with the exception of the head (I don't really know what was originally used!) I know that this is not the classic yacht forum, but I have read some of your articles and other knowledgable individual replys and I wanted to get your, and other respected, opinions. The boat has spent her entire life in Vancouver BC and does not have a holding tank, only direct overboard disharge. I have the boat in Seattle now and need to redo the entire system, so we went off looking for a head that would fit the era theme. My wife, an antique collector, found one, only not at a marine supply house! Your idea of the 1-2 gal water tank over the base is a good idea for the flush volume. The fresh water system on the boat is gravity feed, so I would need to get the water up there somehow?? Since there would be some water left in the bowl, using fresh water may be preferable to raw water, but I'm not sure how to get the correct amount in the tank?? Another issue is the treatment system. I really don't want to start cutting pump-out holes in her deck and would like to go with a treatment system. It could be located within 2-3 ft from the head and will have a 3-4" drop to the area. Is there a treatment system that you recommend? Also, if you have any other suggestions on the European toilet dilema, please let me know. If it could work, it would be a real beauty!!! Thanks again, Garry
Thanks very much for your detailed reply. Unfortunately it is an old European toilet base, with a 4" discharge, that used to have a water tank overhead. The toilet is very old and is a detailed flow blue painted bowl inside and out. We have a 1925 36' classic yacht which has been fuly restored to it's original beauty with the exception of the head (I don't really know what was originally used!) I know that this is not the classic yacht forum, but I have read some of your articles and other knowledgable individual replys and I wanted to get your, and other respected, opinions. The boat has spent her entire life in Vancouver BC and does not have a holding tank, only direct overboard disharge. I have the boat in Seattle now and need to redo the entire system, so we went off looking for a head that would fit the era theme. My wife, an antique collector, found one, only not at a marine supply house! Your idea of the 1-2 gal water tank over the base is a good idea for the flush volume. The fresh water system on the boat is gravity feed, so I would need to get the water up there somehow?? Since there would be some water left in the bowl, using fresh water may be preferable to raw water, but I'm not sure how to get the correct amount in the tank?? Another issue is the treatment system. I really don't want to start cutting pump-out holes in her deck and would like to go with a treatment system. It could be located within 2-3 ft from the head and will have a 3-4" drop to the area. Is there a treatment system that you recommend? Also, if you have any other suggestions on the European toilet dilema, please let me know. If it could work, it would be a real beauty!!! Thanks again, Garry
I'd take it home and plant begonnias in it
In fact, that's what I did--but I "planted" silk ivy in it--with a chamber pot in a magnificent mahogany surround. (Now there's an idea for your boat: an antique "portapotty:" a chamberpot in a wonderful surround.) Seriously, I don't think there's a practical way to make your antique household toilet work on a boat. The problem is the 4" discharge: it requires too large a volume of wate--tanks on European toilets hold 5-7 gallons.and must be mounted 6-7' above the toilet to let gravity create the centrifugal force needed to flush it.. That much flush water rules out every Type I treatment device except the Groco ThermoPure, which uses heat from either an electrical source or a heat exchanger off the engine to kill bacteria. The heat exchanger option is only practical on a powerboat...and the 12v version is even more "power hungry" than the Lectra/San. On the plus side, it's both a Type I treatment device and a holding tank, and is available in 20 gal and 40 gal models. But another downside is its price: starting at over $2000. And I don't know if there's any way to modify it to accomodate a 4" inlet. But at 7 gallons a flush, even the 40 gal model would fill up VERY quickly. I suspect the original toilet was a Wilcox Skipper or Imperial...they've been around that long, and would have been used on a boat such as yours. They're truly "thrones"--bronze and gorgeous. List price: about $1,000--and worth it, 'cuz they're built to last 100 years. However, it's not hard to find a used one...people don't realize what they have, and when they see that a rebuild kit costs nearly $100 and they can buy an entire low-end "disposable" toilet for only a little more--sometimes less if they also need parts, they scrap the Wilcox (which is like throwing away a Rolls Royce to buy a Yugo because a tune-up and repairs for a Rolls cost as much as the Yugo). When it comes to restoring an antique classic yacht, there are two approaches: restore everything as it was originally, and have a "museum" piece that's really only practical to display in antique wooden boat shows...or keep as much of the "flavor" (cosmetics etc) as possible while upgrading the "innards" to modern standards with such new fangled gadgets as electric water pumps, 12v lighting, anchor winch, auxilary engine etc. so that the boat is as comfortable for cruising by today's standards as it was by the standards at the time it was built. So my advice would be: install a 12v water pump, a modern toilet and a Lectra/San. After all, even 1,000 yr old castles now have running water and flush toilets.
In fact, that's what I did--but I "planted" silk ivy in it--with a chamber pot in a magnificent mahogany surround. (Now there's an idea for your boat: an antique "portapotty:" a chamberpot in a wonderful surround.) Seriously, I don't think there's a practical way to make your antique household toilet work on a boat. The problem is the 4" discharge: it requires too large a volume of wate--tanks on European toilets hold 5-7 gallons.and must be mounted 6-7' above the toilet to let gravity create the centrifugal force needed to flush it.. That much flush water rules out every Type I treatment device except the Groco ThermoPure, which uses heat from either an electrical source or a heat exchanger off the engine to kill bacteria. The heat exchanger option is only practical on a powerboat...and the 12v version is even more "power hungry" than the Lectra/San. On the plus side, it's both a Type I treatment device and a holding tank, and is available in 20 gal and 40 gal models. But another downside is its price: starting at over $2000. And I don't know if there's any way to modify it to accomodate a 4" inlet. But at 7 gallons a flush, even the 40 gal model would fill up VERY quickly. I suspect the original toilet was a Wilcox Skipper or Imperial...they've been around that long, and would have been used on a boat such as yours. They're truly "thrones"--bronze and gorgeous. List price: about $1,000--and worth it, 'cuz they're built to last 100 years. However, it's not hard to find a used one...people don't realize what they have, and when they see that a rebuild kit costs nearly $100 and they can buy an entire low-end "disposable" toilet for only a little more--sometimes less if they also need parts, they scrap the Wilcox (which is like throwing away a Rolls Royce to buy a Yugo because a tune-up and repairs for a Rolls cost as much as the Yugo). When it comes to restoring an antique classic yacht, there are two approaches: restore everything as it was originally, and have a "museum" piece that's really only practical to display in antique wooden boat shows...or keep as much of the "flavor" (cosmetics etc) as possible while upgrading the "innards" to modern standards with such new fangled gadgets as electric water pumps, 12v lighting, anchor winch, auxilary engine etc. so that the boat is as comfortable for cruising by today's standards as it was by the standards at the time it was built. So my advice would be: install a 12v water pump, a modern toilet and a Lectra/San. After all, even 1,000 yr old castles now have running water and flush toilets.
I guess it's planting time!
Peggie, I like your idea of using the old style "bronze throne". Is there anybody that currently makes a replica or do you know of any other source that carries something similar that is decorative for use? I really want something that is unique and functional. Thanks again, Garry
Peggie, I like your idea of using the old style "bronze throne". Is there anybody that currently makes a replica or do you know of any other source that carries something similar that is decorative for use? I really want something that is unique and functional. Thanks again, Garry
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