Peggie, I am having a continuing problem with a foul odor out the holding tank vent each time the head is flushed. The only time we have the odor problem is upon flushing. I've read your article on odor out the vent and think I understand the principles of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. I have disconnected the vent line and flushed it out thoroughly. I've bought KO and am using it. I'm concerned there may be a hardened sludge build up as the tank seems to fill too quickly. Would this be a cause of the odor even if the vent is clear and KO is in use? Any suggestions for getting rid of the sludge if it's there? Any other suggestions for dealing with the odor problem? Thanks for your help. Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
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Bob
Odor Too!
We've had that same problem lately on our year old 320. It only seems to happen when the weather is extremely hot and humid for us cause our holding tank is not that old and we don't really let it get that full before we pump out.
We've had that same problem lately on our year old 320. It only seems to happen when the weather is extremely hot and humid for us cause our holding tank is not that old and we don't really let it get that full before we pump out.
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Miles
Flushing?
We used to have a similar problem with odor. We have lots of opportunities to macerate the tank out in the ocean so don't usually go to a pump out. It seems like some of the stuff hangs out at the bottom of the tank and you really have to flush it out well. If you don't usually go to a pump out place and flush the tank with another full tank of water you might try it. Also just pumping the tank full of sea water and then macerating it also helps. It sure can get nasty though especially if someone is sitting next to the vent...
We used to have a similar problem with odor. We have lots of opportunities to macerate the tank out in the ocean so don't usually go to a pump out. It seems like some of the stuff hangs out at the bottom of the tank and you really have to flush it out well. If you don't usually go to a pump out place and flush the tank with another full tank of water you might try it. Also just pumping the tank full of sea water and then macerating it also helps. It sure can get nasty though especially if someone is sitting next to the vent...
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Sludge won't cause odor
And besides, if you're using K.O., you shouldn't have any sludge. Odor problems increase in hot weather because bacteria multiply faster in hot weather...and a cupful can stink as much as a full tank if the tank becomes septic (anaerobic). If K.O. isn't working, the vent isn't allowing enough exchange of fresh air with the gasses in the tank (however, it will still break down sewage...it's just that when it does it anaerobically it stinks and when it does it aerobically it doesn't). Odorlos often works in tanks that K.O. won't, because although it utilizes the same principles, its main ingredient is nitrogen, which releases oxygen from the waste itself instead requiring oxygen from an outside source. Miles is right about one thing...holding tanks need to be rinsed out, at least after every 3rd or 4th pumpout or dumpout. The waste above the surface on the walls of the tank isn't getting any treatment, and over time builds up enough to stink. However, whether waste is macerated or not has nothing to do with whether it stinks. That's strictly a function of whether it's breaking down aerobically or anaerobically (to anyone else reading this: for an explanation, go to the article on holding tank odor in the HM Library). As for your holding tank filling up fast...I doubt if you have sludge...you're prob'ly using more flush water than you think you are. Go back to the HM Library and read the article "Flush With Success" for instructions on how to conserve flush water. Or, your vent line may be partially blocked, preventing the tank from emptying completely. Blast the thru-hull out with water and after your next pumpout, put a hose (NOT the same hose used to fill water tanks!) down the pumpout fitting and fill the tank with fresh water till it's overflowing the out the vent and let the water run till what's coming out the vent is clear. And check your vent thru-hulls for blockages every time you come to the boat!
And besides, if you're using K.O., you shouldn't have any sludge. Odor problems increase in hot weather because bacteria multiply faster in hot weather...and a cupful can stink as much as a full tank if the tank becomes septic (anaerobic). If K.O. isn't working, the vent isn't allowing enough exchange of fresh air with the gasses in the tank (however, it will still break down sewage...it's just that when it does it anaerobically it stinks and when it does it aerobically it doesn't). Odorlos often works in tanks that K.O. won't, because although it utilizes the same principles, its main ingredient is nitrogen, which releases oxygen from the waste itself instead requiring oxygen from an outside source. Miles is right about one thing...holding tanks need to be rinsed out, at least after every 3rd or 4th pumpout or dumpout. The waste above the surface on the walls of the tank isn't getting any treatment, and over time builds up enough to stink. However, whether waste is macerated or not has nothing to do with whether it stinks. That's strictly a function of whether it's breaking down aerobically or anaerobically (to anyone else reading this: for an explanation, go to the article on holding tank odor in the HM Library). As for your holding tank filling up fast...I doubt if you have sludge...you're prob'ly using more flush water than you think you are. Go back to the HM Library and read the article "Flush With Success" for instructions on how to conserve flush water. Or, your vent line may be partially blocked, preventing the tank from emptying completely. Blast the thru-hull out with water and after your next pumpout, put a hose (NOT the same hose used to fill water tanks!) down the pumpout fitting and fill the tank with fresh water till it's overflowing the out the vent and let the water run till what's coming out the vent is clear. And check your vent thru-hulls for blockages every time you come to the boat!
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Dan
Overflowing Vent and another question
I keep seeing recommendations to fill the waste tank to flush it out and to do so until the vent overflows. I'm curious just where this overflow is going to. I thought that any spill out of the waste tank could get you in trouble. I'm not sure I understand how overflowing the vent (even with semi fresh water) is not the same thing. Any comments? Second Question; I recently sailed with some others and was instructed that nothing was to go into the toilet unless it had gone through me first. This is not the first time I have had someone express this on their boat. Putting soiled toilet paper into a plastic bag hung on the door for several days was a bit distasteful. On my boat, we do put toilet paper down the toilet. I'm curious if anyone wants to comment or what the general consensus is regarding this issue. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
I keep seeing recommendations to fill the waste tank to flush it out and to do so until the vent overflows. I'm curious just where this overflow is going to. I thought that any spill out of the waste tank could get you in trouble. I'm not sure I understand how overflowing the vent (even with semi fresh water) is not the same thing. Any comments? Second Question; I recently sailed with some others and was instructed that nothing was to go into the toilet unless it had gone through me first. This is not the first time I have had someone express this on their boat. Putting soiled toilet paper into a plastic bag hung on the door for several days was a bit distasteful. On my boat, we do put toilet paper down the toilet. I'm curious if anyone wants to comment or what the general consensus is regarding this issue. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
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Miles
Don't overflow...
I'll have to defer to our Headmistress if she says otherwise but I wouldn't overflow the vent, that gets really gross. I just keep an eye on the gauge and stop near the top. As far as toilet paper goes the nice thing about being El Capitan is that you get to make the rules, the bad thing is that you also get to clean stuff out of the head. Don't get carried away with the TP and you should be fine...
I'll have to defer to our Headmistress if she says otherwise but I wouldn't overflow the vent, that gets really gross. I just keep an eye on the gauge and stop near the top. As far as toilet paper goes the nice thing about being El Capitan is that you get to make the rules, the bad thing is that you also get to clean stuff out of the head. Don't get carried away with the TP and you should be fine...
Dan, That's kind of a poopy question!
Dan: When we refer to flushing out the vent from the outside in or the inside out, both of these conditions assume that you have pumped your tank out. We would normally pump out at the dock and then put a few gallons of fresh (dock side) water back into the holding tank to rinse it out. Then pump that out again (that's your basic rinse). Then we would put the hose in the vent to make sure that there is nothing in the vent line. We do this EVERY time we pump out at the dock. The second or major rinse (which Peggie recommends once per month) would be basically the same as above but then you would refill the tank completly with fresh water and keep filling until water comes out of the vent line. You would then pump the fresh water out of the tank and now your tank should be well rinsed out. Now for the poopy part of your question. On OUR boat we do not worry about TP going into the tank. If you are buying TP made for holding tanks or basically the same stuff that is to be used in a septic system the stuff disolves quickly in the presence of water. To test this just take a couple of sheets (clean) and put it in a glass of water let it sit for a minute or so and then stir it. It should start falling apart almost immediately. As for ANYTHING else that someone has not passed thru their body, it is best that it does not get put into the head (baby wipes, etc.). Probably the best thing that you could tell your guests is to use the TP sparingly. It will clog up in the head if you use too much. It has not had the time to start falling apart. PS: How is the charter business?
Dan: When we refer to flushing out the vent from the outside in or the inside out, both of these conditions assume that you have pumped your tank out. We would normally pump out at the dock and then put a few gallons of fresh (dock side) water back into the holding tank to rinse it out. Then pump that out again (that's your basic rinse). Then we would put the hose in the vent to make sure that there is nothing in the vent line. We do this EVERY time we pump out at the dock. The second or major rinse (which Peggie recommends once per month) would be basically the same as above but then you would refill the tank completly with fresh water and keep filling until water comes out of the vent line. You would then pump the fresh water out of the tank and now your tank should be well rinsed out. Now for the poopy part of your question. On OUR boat we do not worry about TP going into the tank. If you are buying TP made for holding tanks or basically the same stuff that is to be used in a septic system the stuff disolves quickly in the presence of water. To test this just take a couple of sheets (clean) and put it in a glass of water let it sit for a minute or so and then stir it. It should start falling apart almost immediately. As for ANYTHING else that someone has not passed thru their body, it is best that it does not get put into the head (baby wipes, etc.). Probably the best thing that you could tell your guests is to use the TP sparingly. It will clog up in the head if you use too much. It has not had the time to start falling apart. PS: How is the charter business?
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
To answer your first question...
Flushing the tank till it runs out the vent does put a TINY amount of waste into the water...technically illegal, but so much less than even one direct flush as to be a non-issue to all but hardcore environmental zealots...and non-measurable against what runs off the shore every time it rains, or even the water in most marinas. As for those who insist that nothing should go down the toilet that hasn't been eaten first, except for landlubber guests, it's a totally unnecessary precaution, at least for those who know how to flush a marine toilet correctly and bother to maintain the system at all. Any marine toilet that's working even close to specs can easily handle a reasonable amount of the right kind of toilet paper (more on that later). Those who insist upon using premium TP, half a roll a flush, refuse to take a toilet apart to rebuild it unless the bowl is full and won't go down, or ignore sea water crystal buildup in hoses find themselves with clogged toilets, and look for anything to blame it on except their own negligence. A marine toilet has nothing in common with the one at home. The one at home has no working parts...a marine toilet is a complete system, including a mechanical or electric pump, plumbing and either a holding tank or a treatment device, or both. Like any piece of equipment, a marine toilet has limitations and requires periodic PREVENTIVE maintenance. Do it, and the odds you'll ever need repair drop from 100-1 to 1-100. As long as you use cheap insitutional toilet paper that almost dissolves in your hand when it gets wet (which is the same thing as "marine/rv" TP)--and don't use too much of it at a time (where is it written that you only get one flush per sitting?)-- and make sure to flush ALL the way through the system, any marine toilet that's working to specs can handle it. If you're in any doubt about whether a particular TP is suitable for use aboard, tear off a sheet a put it in a glass of water overnight. If it's still an intact, or nearly intact, sheet in the morning, don't use it on your boat...but if you stir the glass and all you see is "snow," any marine toilet can handle it just fine. ALL that said, landlubber guests are another issue. None of us want to give 'em a lecture on how a marine sanitation works--it's strengths and weaknesses, what it can swallow and what it can't--and besides, they won't remember it anyway. Landlubbers figure that anything the toilet at home can swallow, so can a marine toilet...they're totally incapable of understanding that there's a huge difference between the TP onboard and the Kleenex in their purse, and while I hate to admit it, women who haven't been MARINE potty trained seemed to be genetically programed to use half a roll a flush. So the safest line of defense is simply to show 'em how to flush it, and insist that NOTHING that doesn't pass through them goes into the toilet. That means keeping a little "pail" that has a lid and trap door, and some trash can liners that fit it in your dock locker to bring out and put in the head when landlubber guests are expected. Take the liner full of TP (and whatever) to the dumpster and put the pail back in the dock locker as soon as they leave. Unfortunately, any other course could find you taking apart your sanitation plumbing to extract a tampon...and if you think the idea of said pail is distasteful, you haven't lived until you've had to do that!
Flushing the tank till it runs out the vent does put a TINY amount of waste into the water...technically illegal, but so much less than even one direct flush as to be a non-issue to all but hardcore environmental zealots...and non-measurable against what runs off the shore every time it rains, or even the water in most marinas. As for those who insist that nothing should go down the toilet that hasn't been eaten first, except for landlubber guests, it's a totally unnecessary precaution, at least for those who know how to flush a marine toilet correctly and bother to maintain the system at all. Any marine toilet that's working even close to specs can easily handle a reasonable amount of the right kind of toilet paper (more on that later). Those who insist upon using premium TP, half a roll a flush, refuse to take a toilet apart to rebuild it unless the bowl is full and won't go down, or ignore sea water crystal buildup in hoses find themselves with clogged toilets, and look for anything to blame it on except their own negligence. A marine toilet has nothing in common with the one at home. The one at home has no working parts...a marine toilet is a complete system, including a mechanical or electric pump, plumbing and either a holding tank or a treatment device, or both. Like any piece of equipment, a marine toilet has limitations and requires periodic PREVENTIVE maintenance. Do it, and the odds you'll ever need repair drop from 100-1 to 1-100. As long as you use cheap insitutional toilet paper that almost dissolves in your hand when it gets wet (which is the same thing as "marine/rv" TP)--and don't use too much of it at a time (where is it written that you only get one flush per sitting?)-- and make sure to flush ALL the way through the system, any marine toilet that's working to specs can handle it. If you're in any doubt about whether a particular TP is suitable for use aboard, tear off a sheet a put it in a glass of water overnight. If it's still an intact, or nearly intact, sheet in the morning, don't use it on your boat...but if you stir the glass and all you see is "snow," any marine toilet can handle it just fine. ALL that said, landlubber guests are another issue. None of us want to give 'em a lecture on how a marine sanitation works--it's strengths and weaknesses, what it can swallow and what it can't--and besides, they won't remember it anyway. Landlubbers figure that anything the toilet at home can swallow, so can a marine toilet...they're totally incapable of understanding that there's a huge difference between the TP onboard and the Kleenex in their purse, and while I hate to admit it, women who haven't been MARINE potty trained seemed to be genetically programed to use half a roll a flush. So the safest line of defense is simply to show 'em how to flush it, and insist that NOTHING that doesn't pass through them goes into the toilet. That means keeping a little "pail" that has a lid and trap door, and some trash can liners that fit it in your dock locker to bring out and put in the head when landlubber guests are expected. Take the liner full of TP (and whatever) to the dumpster and put the pail back in the dock locker as soon as they leave. Unfortunately, any other course could find you taking apart your sanitation plumbing to extract a tampon...and if you think the idea of said pail is distasteful, you haven't lived until you've had to do that!
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Art Barnes
Give instructions:
Tell all potential parties on your boat that the head is a "marine toilet" and it doesn't work the way others do. I keep a covered waste basket and baby wipes in the head and ask all users to use the wipes and never flush them down. I also have a sign in the head with instructions; it helps. When a non-sailor starts to go to the head I remind them that nothing but body waste can be flushed. Although I know the right paper can be handled, I don't take the chance, since the potential clogging and cleaning is the job left for the owner (me). Rinse it out several times and once you get it clean, keep it that way with monthy cleanings, flushings, etc. Fairwinds, Art
Tell all potential parties on your boat that the head is a "marine toilet" and it doesn't work the way others do. I keep a covered waste basket and baby wipes in the head and ask all users to use the wipes and never flush them down. I also have a sign in the head with instructions; it helps. When a non-sailor starts to go to the head I remind them that nothing but body waste can be flushed. Although I know the right paper can be handled, I don't take the chance, since the potential clogging and cleaning is the job left for the owner (me). Rinse it out several times and once you get it clean, keep it that way with monthy cleanings, flushings, etc. Fairwinds, Art
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