Did search on SBO but didn't find any threads re this particular filter. If you have this on your boat, would like input on the big orange filter.
http://www.bigorangefilter.com/
http://www.bigorangefilter.com/
Holding Tank Vent Filter
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a. You're in Maine (cold water), he's in Florida. My head never stinks in the winter (I sail all year); only when the water hits 80F+.
b. He is talking about a once per year refill (Big Orange is refillable, for peanuts if you source your own carbon), vs. a weekly treatment.
There are negatives to filters (clogging with cr_p), but let's hear them out. I personally feel anything that requires a weekly treatment could be improved. Most people don't see their boats often and have little time for system maintenance, other than spring commissioning.
Big orange, in principal ,will work. However, it is very expensive. I had the same problem that I am sure you are contending with-noxious odors escaping from the vent line. Its not supposed to happen, but it does-especially in warmer climates to heads that flush with salt water.
My solution was a refillable vent filter. I made 1, tested it and then several more. To install, cut the vent line and insert the filter. So far, my has lasted over a year. When the odor returns, remove the filter and replace the filter material at a cost of about 2 bucks. I'll sell you one of my extras for $59 prepaid. email me at bjtigar1@netzero.net for more details. Bob Tigar
My solution was a refillable vent filter. I made 1, tested it and then several more. To install, cut the vent line and insert the filter. So far, my has lasted over a year. When the odor returns, remove the filter and replace the filter material at a cost of about 2 bucks. I'll sell you one of my extras for $59 prepaid. email me at bjtigar1@netzero.net for more details. Bob Tigar
We use KO sold on SBO, but still get odor when flushing. We have a big vent per Peggy's recommendation. We never use sea water, only fresh water for flushing. I'll look into Odorlos.
I would check out Odorlos as an alternative.
What do you think is going to happen if you "over-fill" a holding tank that has a filter on it? I think it will either "explode" or create a lot of back press as you try to pump the head.
Odor from your tank is more likely to be the hoses and you should look into checking them out too.
What do you think is going to happen if you "over-fill" a holding tank that has a filter on it? I think it will either "explode" or create a lot of back press as you try to pump the head.
Odor from your tank is more likely to be the hoses and you should look into checking them out too.
A vent filter is a vent filter is a vent filter...
Doesn't matter what the brand is. They all actually help to create the very problem they're sold to solve (why couldn't I have invented something that does that???). Oxygen is the key to odor elimination...all a filter does is
prevent the exchange of fresh air with the air inside the tank that's needed to keep the tank aerobic...and therefore odor free.
I thought the SeaLand filters were expensive till I checked out the price for this one! For less than the cost of two Big Orange filters, 3 SeaLand filters or 4 of Bob's, you can install a Groco Sweetank system Groco Sweetank installation instructions (aeration system. When installed, operated and maintained according to directions, it completely eliminates holding tank odor out the vent without the use of ANY tank product, paying for itself in only few seasons.
Doesn't matter what the brand is. They all actually help to create the very problem they're sold to solve (why couldn't I have invented something that does that???). Oxygen is the key to odor elimination...all a filter does is
prevent the exchange of fresh air with the air inside the tank that's needed to keep the tank aerobic...and therefore odor free.
I thought the SeaLand filters were expensive till I checked out the price for this one! For less than the cost of two Big Orange filters, 3 SeaLand filters or 4 of Bob's, you can install a Groco Sweetank system Groco Sweetank installation instructions (aeration system. When installed, operated and maintained according to directions, it completely eliminates holding tank odor out the vent without the use of ANY tank product, paying for itself in only few seasons.
Odorlos often will work in tanks that aren't well enough ventilated to allow K.O. to function aerobically...however, the effectiveness of ANY product depends on using it according to directions.
That's a bit over- dramatic, Steve. Vent filters don't explode, but when the charcoal in it gets wet, it creates a vent line blockage that does the same thing as any other vent line blockage...when air displaced by incoming waste has no place to escape, the system becomes pressurized...which can result in anything from a geyser when you open the deck pumpout cap to an eruption in the toilet (loads of fun for the person bending over the bowl pumping it) to even an burst tank. The vent line also provides a source of air to replace contents as they're pumped out...if the vent becomes blocked, the pumpout or macerator will pull a vacuum that prevents more than a gallon or two from being pulled out...and can result in a cracked tank.
We're only discussing odor out the tank vent, Steve. Permeated hoses will not contribute to that, only to odor INSIDE the boat.
Peggie:
I have seen a power boater that had a filter on the vent line. The owner overfilled their tank. They move the boat over to the pump out dock and removed the fitting for the pump out.
Now you may not think that it was an explosion, but when that SHIT started to escape out of that discharge house the owner thought it was an explosion. I never saw anyone run so fast, but it did not do him much good to run. (sort of like trying to dodge a bullet) <g>
So it was not overly dramatic but a little exaggerated none-the-less!
I have seen a power boater that had a filter on the vent line. The owner overfilled their tank. They move the boat over to the pump out dock and removed the fitting for the pump out.
Now you may not think that it was an explosion, but when that SHIT started to escape out of that discharge house the owner thought it was an explosion. I never saw anyone run so fast, but it did not do him much good to run. (sort of like trying to dodge a bullet) <g>
So it was not overly dramatic but a little exaggerated none-the-less!
It wasn't the filter that "exploded"....
He prob'ly didn't need a pumpout any more, just a bath!
But it doesn't take a filter to create that much pressure...A dirt dauber nest in the thru-hull can cause it...so can waste buildup in the vent thru-hull and the connection to the tank due to waste spilling into the vent when the boat heels...and overfilling the tank too...and all you have to do is continue flush the toilet when the vent is blocked to find out the hard way why it's so important to make sure the vent doesn't ever GET blocked...to check the thru-hull regularly and backflush the vent line every time you wash the boat and/or pump out.
Which is another reason why vent filters are a bad idea...because they can't get wet, they make it impossible to flush out the vent line. It also makes 'em an even worse idea on sailboats because it can be impossible to keep the filter from getting wet when the boat heels.
You witnessed the geyser I mentioned earlier that's certain to be the result of pressure buildup in the system created by a vent blockage, no matter what blocks the vent...and if it really did look like an explosion instead of just doing the usual "Old Faithful" imitation, that tank had to be so pressurized that IT was about to explode!
He prob'ly didn't need a pumpout any more, just a bath! But it doesn't take a filter to create that much pressure...A dirt dauber nest in the thru-hull can cause it...so can waste buildup in the vent thru-hull and the connection to the tank due to waste spilling into the vent when the boat heels...and overfilling the tank too...and all you have to do is continue flush the toilet when the vent is blocked to find out the hard way why it's so important to make sure the vent doesn't ever GET blocked...to check the thru-hull regularly and backflush the vent line every time you wash the boat and/or pump out.
Which is another reason why vent filters are a bad idea...because they can't get wet, they make it impossible to flush out the vent line. It also makes 'em an even worse idea on sailboats because it can be impossible to keep the filter from getting wet when the boat heels.
Re: It wasn't the filter that "exploded"....
Peggy, how long does it take for K.O. to work? I put the amount suggested on the bottle after every pumpout. When cruising, our holding tank is good for 5 days, then we have to pump out. We don't have an odor inside the boat, just an odor sometimes from the vent when flushing (the person in the cockpit downwind gets a whif).
Peggy, how long does it take for K.O. to work? I put the amount suggested on the bottle after every pumpout. When cruising, our holding tank is good for 5 days, then we have to pump out. We don't have an odor inside the boat, just an odor sometimes from the vent when flushing (the person in the cockpit downwind gets a whif).
Re: It wasn't the filter that "exploded"....
For the problem you have, odorolus, KO and none of the other chemical will work. If you can rig a very straight, short vent line the problem will be eliminated. If the vent is long and winding (necessitated by the location of the holding tank) a filter is the answer. Bob
For the problem you have, odorolus, KO and none of the other chemical will work. If you can rig a very straight, short vent line the problem will be eliminated. If the vent is long and winding (necessitated by the location of the holding tank) a filter is the answer. Bob
Re: It wasn't the filter that "exploded"....
Our vent line is 1", but about 10' long. So, we are going to add another vent line for cross ventilation per Peggy's book or consider the Sweetank she mentioned in this thread.
The vacuum problem is minor; Sealand puts a vacuum break on all of their tanks, as do some other manufacturers. Just a poppet check valve facing inwards.
Also, Big Orange has a vacuum break included in the unit. This seems to be a better location than right on the tank (it will stay cleaner).
The pressure problem is more difficult, particularly if the owner overfills the tank. Locating the filter high and adding a filter by-pass with a PR valve would work, but there are complications:
* The valve can get water against it and freeze.
* The valve can get fouled with cr_p and will require some maintanace.
Installing a swing check in a horizontal run just slightly above the through-hull solves most of this. A water loop could also be used (like sink trap) but again, freezing is problem and the liquid level must be maintained.
Perhaps a clever person will puzzel this through, simplifying as they go.
Regarding cost, only an exceptionally lazy person would buy the expensive refills or new filters each year; carbon is cheap and refills with bulk carbon are easy. There are many posts on the net. The real cost of carbon is < $5/year.
The big vent solution is simplest, when it works. However, it still generally requires weekly chemical addition, which is the oposite of low maintanance, in my view. There is room for improvement. I don't believe one size fits all.
One problem with aeriating the tank mechanically is that power must remain on; I'm not wild about that. But really, nothing more than an aquarium compressor is needed.
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I have designed a number of very large refinery carbon systems for many purposes. They generaly include the traps and valves I have suggested, but they are also 1,000-100,000 times larger! I have not tried carbon on my boat.
Also, Big Orange has a vacuum break included in the unit. This seems to be a better location than right on the tank (it will stay cleaner).
The pressure problem is more difficult, particularly if the owner overfills the tank. Locating the filter high and adding a filter by-pass with a PR valve would work, but there are complications:
* The valve can get water against it and freeze.
* The valve can get fouled with cr_p and will require some maintanace.
Installing a swing check in a horizontal run just slightly above the through-hull solves most of this. A water loop could also be used (like sink trap) but again, freezing is problem and the liquid level must be maintained.
Perhaps a clever person will puzzel this through, simplifying as they go.
Regarding cost, only an exceptionally lazy person would buy the expensive refills or new filters each year; carbon is cheap and refills with bulk carbon are easy. There are many posts on the net. The real cost of carbon is < $5/year.
The big vent solution is simplest, when it works. However, it still generally requires weekly chemical addition, which is the oposite of low maintanance, in my view. There is room for improvement. I don't believe one size fits all.
One problem with aeriating the tank mechanically is that power must remain on; I'm not wild about that. But really, nothing more than an aquarium compressor is needed.
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I have designed a number of very large refinery carbon systems for many purposes. They generaly include the traps and valves I have suggested, but they are also 1,000-100,000 times larger! I have not tried carbon on my boat.
Vacuum breaker solves only half the problem
It CAN prevent strong suction from imploding a tank. However a vacuum breaker will not prevent the system from becoming pressurized as a result of a vent blockage caused by anything...and a filter greatly increases the odds of a vent blockage while making it impossible to maintain the vent to prevent it. The workarounds to solve that problem have their own set of problems.
A couple of simple inexpensive mods to the vent line and adding a tank treatment to the first flush when you come aboard each week doesn't seem like a lot of extra effort to me and certainly costs a lot less than any filter. But it's your boat and your money...if you want to spend it for something that creates more problems than it solves, it's fine with me.
And with that, I've said my piece on this subject.
It CAN prevent strong suction from imploding a tank. However a vacuum breaker will not prevent the system from becoming pressurized as a result of a vent blockage caused by anything...and a filter greatly increases the odds of a vent blockage while making it impossible to maintain the vent to prevent it. The workarounds to solve that problem have their own set of problems.
A couple of simple inexpensive mods to the vent line and adding a tank treatment to the first flush when you come aboard each week doesn't seem like a lot of extra effort to me and certainly costs a lot less than any filter. But it's your boat and your money...if you want to spend it for something that creates more problems than it solves, it's fine with me.
And with that, I've said my piece on this subject.
Second vent line rarely needed
Btw, K.O. should work immediately as long as it's not added to a tank that has a chemical product in it.
Why don't you just shorten the existing vent line, Mary? It's easy to do in most installations. And one 1" vent is usually enough to get the job done if it's <5', straight and doesn't rise more than 45 degrees. Give me a shout via email to work out the best way to do it either way.
Btw, K.O. should work immediately as long as it's not added to a tank that has a chemical product in it.
Peggy, the vent line won't reach the thru hull if we shorten it. Tank is under v-berth at about knee level, thru hull is in head neaqr deck level about 3 feet aftof Mary's head when she is in the v-berth. Odor is only a problem in the cockpit when at anchor, then only briefly. Can easily t into line, run second vent into hanging locker on my side and out. More work would be run vent forward to anchor locker add 'nother thru hull.
Teeing 2nd vent line into a vent line doesn't work
Running the vent line forward to a new thru-hull (NOT a "vent" thru-hull, but an open bulkhead thru-hull) is the right solution and shouldn't be any more work than it would be to install a new second vent.
'Cuz air will only travel across the top of the tee...it won't go through the tank.
Running the vent line forward to a new thru-hull (NOT a "vent" thru-hull, but an open bulkhead thru-hull) is the right solution and shouldn't be any more work than it would be to install a new second vent.
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