Peggy help, I have a new Beneteau 393 and this weekend I had a problem with the holding tank backing up and filling the toilet bowl. When I boarded the boat on thursday evening the bowl had waste water in it, even though I had pumped out before leaving the boat the weekend before. The only way to stop this, was to switch the y value to overboard after using and flushing the head. This only happens in the forward head where I think the tank is mounted high. However its never happen before this weekend, and obviously should never happen. The vent seems fine, is it the toilet?
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Let's apply some logic
If the holding tank is empty (or close to it), and the inlet from the toilet is at the top of the tank, how can it be tank contents that are running back toward the bowl? They can't jump up into the hose. However, if it only happened while you're sailing, it is possible for heeling to send the contents of even a half-full tank back down the intake if the inlet fitting is next to the hull instead of toward the centerline. But if it happened while the boat is at rest, there's no way it can be tank contents. If it did happen while the boat's at rest, either the tank isn't empty, but IS full to overflowing (Did you check to see, or just assume it was because you pumped it out?), or what you're seeing isn't coming from the tank, but is runback of waste in the head discharge hose. There are several possible reasons why the tank may not be empty: 1. the vent is blocked (usually a clog in the thru-hull), preventing it from being pumped out; 2. you left a seacock open that allowed it to flood. So first, make sure the tank IS empty. If it is, then it has to be just what's left in the hose between the toilet and the tank. It's dirty because the inside of the hose is dirty. If the hose runs uphill all the way to the tank, gravity will send whatever is left in the hose back toward the toilet. Turning the y-valve and opening the seacock allowed it to drain overboard. Two possible reasons why it's a new phenomenon: 1. the "lips" in the joker valve in the head discharge have finally stretched open to the point where they're allowing the toilet to flood. Even a new joker valve can't prevent very slow seepage, but with use the "lips" become more and more open till it's no longer a one-way valve any more. 2. Sea water calcium carbonate buildup in the head discharge hose to the point where it's reduced the diameter of the hose enough to restrict flow and create backpressure. 3. A combination of 1 and 2. However, if this is your first season with a brand new boat, it's awfully soon for either one to be happening unless you're living aboard and spending 24 hours a day aboard. Otoh, the weather has been very hot on the Bay this summer, which means the water is warm...and calcium carbonate buildup happens a lot faster in warm sea water. So you have several things to do: check the level in the tank, check the tank vent thru-hull...remove the discharge hose from the toilet to see what the inside of the hose looks like and while you have it off, replace the joker valve. If none of the above solve the problem get back to me.
If the holding tank is empty (or close to it), and the inlet from the toilet is at the top of the tank, how can it be tank contents that are running back toward the bowl? They can't jump up into the hose. However, if it only happened while you're sailing, it is possible for heeling to send the contents of even a half-full tank back down the intake if the inlet fitting is next to the hull instead of toward the centerline. But if it happened while the boat is at rest, there's no way it can be tank contents. If it did happen while the boat's at rest, either the tank isn't empty, but IS full to overflowing (Did you check to see, or just assume it was because you pumped it out?), or what you're seeing isn't coming from the tank, but is runback of waste in the head discharge hose. There are several possible reasons why the tank may not be empty: 1. the vent is blocked (usually a clog in the thru-hull), preventing it from being pumped out; 2. you left a seacock open that allowed it to flood. So first, make sure the tank IS empty. If it is, then it has to be just what's left in the hose between the toilet and the tank. It's dirty because the inside of the hose is dirty. If the hose runs uphill all the way to the tank, gravity will send whatever is left in the hose back toward the toilet. Turning the y-valve and opening the seacock allowed it to drain overboard. Two possible reasons why it's a new phenomenon: 1. the "lips" in the joker valve in the head discharge have finally stretched open to the point where they're allowing the toilet to flood. Even a new joker valve can't prevent very slow seepage, but with use the "lips" become more and more open till it's no longer a one-way valve any more. 2. Sea water calcium carbonate buildup in the head discharge hose to the point where it's reduced the diameter of the hose enough to restrict flow and create backpressure. 3. A combination of 1 and 2. However, if this is your first season with a brand new boat, it's awfully soon for either one to be happening unless you're living aboard and spending 24 hours a day aboard. Otoh, the weather has been very hot on the Bay this summer, which means the water is warm...and calcium carbonate buildup happens a lot faster in warm sea water. So you have several things to do: check the level in the tank, check the tank vent thru-hull...remove the discharge hose from the toilet to see what the inside of the hose looks like and while you have it off, replace the joker valve. If none of the above solve the problem get back to me.
With all due respect, Peggy, ...
(1) First of all, Joker valves are a joke, plain and simple. As Peggy acknowledges, the "lips" of the Joker valve will leak immediately upon installation of a new part and only get worse after that. You can just hold one up to the light, brand new, and see that they are not even remotely capable of stopping, just slowing, the flow of liquids; (2) in my boat, a 1985 Hunter 31, the toilet pumps into the holding tank at the bottom! Yes, it's a ridiculous arrangement but in many cases, that's what boating is all about, isn't it? My advice: (1) pump out your holding tank, early and often; (2) use Odorlos or K.O.; (3) rebuild the toilet annually; (4) use shore facilities as much as possible. Holding tanks on boats are a necessary evil. They should never be expected to compare to your home facilities.
(1) First of all, Joker valves are a joke, plain and simple. As Peggy acknowledges, the "lips" of the Joker valve will leak immediately upon installation of a new part and only get worse after that. You can just hold one up to the light, brand new, and see that they are not even remotely capable of stopping, just slowing, the flow of liquids; (2) in my boat, a 1985 Hunter 31, the toilet pumps into the holding tank at the bottom! Yes, it's a ridiculous arrangement but in many cases, that's what boating is all about, isn't it? My advice: (1) pump out your holding tank, early and often; (2) use Odorlos or K.O.; (3) rebuild the toilet annually; (4) use shore facilities as much as possible. Holding tanks on boats are a necessary evil. They should never be expected to compare to your home facilities.
Ridiculous arrangements
aren't what boating SHOULD be about. Boatbuilders do make mistakes (seacocks in inaccessible locations, no access to tanks and other equipment, bilge areas that don't drain AND have no access) but 95% of 'em are created by owners who don't have a clue about cause and effect or understand how equipment works. I suspect your holding tank is a perfect example, Bob. And it needs to be corrected--for several reasons: there's no possible way to prevent standing waste in the head discharge line to the tank. No possible way to prevent backflow into the toilet, no matter how little is in the tank...and that includes sludge. You can't blame it on the joker valve...a joker valve isn't supposed to prevent seepage, only a flood due to a "malfunction"--tank overflow due to heeling, backpressure due a clog or a blocked vent--downstream of the toilet. If your tank were installed correctly, and maintained correctly (tank vent kept clear, complete flushing, tank never overfilled, nothing put down the toilet that can clog it) there shouldn't BE a need for the joker valve to do any more than it's designed to do. You're 100% correct that a marine toilet has nothing but the bowl in common with a household toilet. A household toilet has no moving parts, uses gravity to flush, and is just an appliance. A marine toilet is working machinery, has a pump that's either operated by hand or a motor, and is only one component of a complete system. ALL parts of the system have to be installed and maintained correctly in order for ANY of it to work properly. When the entire system is installed and operated correctly, it's usually very easy to maintain and there are rarely any problems. But when any part of it isn't, it creates problems in the entire system and creates demands on parts to do something they're not intended to do and cannot do. That doesn't only apply to the sanitation system, but to every system on the boat. Every device in a house--from a lamp to a tv to a refrigerator to a stove to the kitchen sink to the running water is JUST an appliance...everything on a boat is part of a complete system. Screw up one part, and you screw up the whole system--and maybe others too. Bob, after your boat comes out this fall would be a good time to correct your holding tank installation...I strongly recommend, for the reasons I listed above, that you do it.
aren't what boating SHOULD be about. Boatbuilders do make mistakes (seacocks in inaccessible locations, no access to tanks and other equipment, bilge areas that don't drain AND have no access) but 95% of 'em are created by owners who don't have a clue about cause and effect or understand how equipment works. I suspect your holding tank is a perfect example, Bob. And it needs to be corrected--for several reasons: there's no possible way to prevent standing waste in the head discharge line to the tank. No possible way to prevent backflow into the toilet, no matter how little is in the tank...and that includes sludge. You can't blame it on the joker valve...a joker valve isn't supposed to prevent seepage, only a flood due to a "malfunction"--tank overflow due to heeling, backpressure due a clog or a blocked vent--downstream of the toilet. If your tank were installed correctly, and maintained correctly (tank vent kept clear, complete flushing, tank never overfilled, nothing put down the toilet that can clog it) there shouldn't BE a need for the joker valve to do any more than it's designed to do. You're 100% correct that a marine toilet has nothing but the bowl in common with a household toilet. A household toilet has no moving parts, uses gravity to flush, and is just an appliance. A marine toilet is working machinery, has a pump that's either operated by hand or a motor, and is only one component of a complete system. ALL parts of the system have to be installed and maintained correctly in order for ANY of it to work properly. When the entire system is installed and operated correctly, it's usually very easy to maintain and there are rarely any problems. But when any part of it isn't, it creates problems in the entire system and creates demands on parts to do something they're not intended to do and cannot do. That doesn't only apply to the sanitation system, but to every system on the boat. Every device in a house--from a lamp to a tv to a refrigerator to a stove to the kitchen sink to the running water is JUST an appliance...everything on a boat is part of a complete system. Screw up one part, and you screw up the whole system--and maybe others too. Bob, after your boat comes out this fall would be a good time to correct your holding tank installation...I strongly recommend, for the reasons I listed above, that you do it.
Need two to tango
I have had the same problem in my 361. In Beneteau boats, the tube from the head enters the holding tank through the top. However, because of the height of the tank relatively to the head, (~4.5 ft) there is substantial volume of fluid left in the tube, even after pumping with the lever in dry. What I found the hard way was that for the fluid to backflow into the head, not only the infamous Joker valve lips need to be leaking, but also the generally overlooked “base valve” needs to be incompetent. (Part (15) in web link). This base valve prevents the fluid from regurgitating into the bowl during every pump down stroke. If only one of these valves works, backflow will be stopped although the pumping action may be compromised. In my case, I had to replace both valves making sure that the surface against which the “base valve” seals was clean. (they can be special ordered as parts from BoatUS instead of buying the full service kit)
I have had the same problem in my 361. In Beneteau boats, the tube from the head enters the holding tank through the top. However, because of the height of the tank relatively to the head, (~4.5 ft) there is substantial volume of fluid left in the tube, even after pumping with the lever in dry. What I found the hard way was that for the fluid to backflow into the head, not only the infamous Joker valve lips need to be leaking, but also the generally overlooked “base valve” needs to be incompetent. (Part (15) in web link). This base valve prevents the fluid from regurgitating into the bowl during every pump down stroke. If only one of these valves works, backflow will be stopped although the pumping action may be compromised. In my case, I had to replace both valves making sure that the surface against which the “base valve” seals was clean. (they can be special ordered as parts from BoatUS instead of buying the full service kit)
Move the holding tank???
Jose, I looked at a 361 yesterday and it had the "smell" permeating the hoses just like your posts last year. I didn't know the tank was above the head in the 361 until the guy mentioned it to me. Stupid design. So I thought about, and was wondering about moving the talk to somewhere else, that way there wouldn't be 4+ ft of hose with brown-water backing up against the head all the time. I'd have to look around the 361 some more, but what about under the setee by the hot water tank? Or under the aft cabin berth (I think there's a fresh water tank in there, but you could swap out tanks, something like this: trash holding tank in head; order new tank for that area and make it a fresh water tank; replace fresh water tank under berth with smaller one; and put new holding tank under berth where you made space????) Anyway, just an idea. Tim
Jose, I looked at a 361 yesterday and it had the "smell" permeating the hoses just like your posts last year. I didn't know the tank was above the head in the 361 until the guy mentioned it to me. Stupid design. So I thought about, and was wondering about moving the talk to somewhere else, that way there wouldn't be 4+ ft of hose with brown-water backing up against the head all the time. I'd have to look around the 361 some more, but what about under the setee by the hot water tank? Or under the aft cabin berth (I think there's a fresh water tank in there, but you could swap out tanks, something like this: trash holding tank in head; order new tank for that area and make it a fresh water tank; replace fresh water tank under berth with smaller one; and put new holding tank under berth where you made space????) Anyway, just an idea. Tim
Tim, tank location needs to be
within 6-8' of the toilet, and as straight a shot from the toilet as possible. Any of the locations you mentioned would be fine as long as it fits within those limitations.
within 6-8' of the toilet, and as straight a shot from the toilet as possible. Any of the locations you mentioned would be fine as long as it fits within those limitations.
Tim, no more smell since...
I covered the tubes with aluminum tape and no more back flow since I changed the valves that were already two year old. This, even though I commit the "sacrilege" of not pumping the tubes dry after each use except when I am leaving the boat at the end of the week end. Instead, what I do is to pump through three cups of fresh water, and leave the last cup in the bowl after each use and just before leaving the boat for a week. I believe that this helps prolonging the valve's life because it prevents any matter stuck to the valves from drying up potentially causing valve incompetence. In relation to the 361 holding tank location, the only good thing about tit is that it can be voided ashore by gravity. However, it is too small and eventually will have to be upgraded to a larger one, as the non-discharge zones expand in New England. In that case, I like your idea of swapping the water tank of the aft berth for a large holding tank and moving the water tank to the bottom of the port side lazarette. I should also report that my rudder has not yet fallen off due to galvanic corrosion caused by the aluminum tape over my tubes
I covered the tubes with aluminum tape and no more back flow since I changed the valves that were already two year old. This, even though I commit the "sacrilege" of not pumping the tubes dry after each use except when I am leaving the boat at the end of the week end. Instead, what I do is to pump through three cups of fresh water, and leave the last cup in the bowl after each use and just before leaving the boat for a week. I believe that this helps prolonging the valve's life because it prevents any matter stuck to the valves from drying up potentially causing valve incompetence. In relation to the 361 holding tank location, the only good thing about tit is that it can be voided ashore by gravity. However, it is too small and eventually will have to be upgraded to a larger one, as the non-discharge zones expand in New England. In that case, I like your idea of swapping the water tank of the aft berth for a large holding tank and moving the water tank to the bottom of the port side lazarette. I should also report that my rudder has not yet fallen off due to galvanic corrosion caused by the aluminum tape over my tubes
Moving tanks
Jose, Good to hear your system is working out okay. If we get this 361, I'm going to look into a semi-major refit of the holding tank and potable water tanks as we are on the Great Lakes where there are NO discharge zones at all! The boat I'm looking at is hull #18, and the guy said the holding tank had "18 Gal" noted on it. Is that what you have as well? I need to get in there and do some measuring to see what tanks might fit where, but I think its fairly doable. Enjoy the rest of the sailing season... Tim
Jose, Good to hear your system is working out okay. If we get this 361, I'm going to look into a semi-major refit of the holding tank and potable water tanks as we are on the Great Lakes where there are NO discharge zones at all! The boat I'm looking at is hull #18, and the guy said the holding tank had "18 Gal" noted on it. Is that what you have as well? I need to get in there and do some measuring to see what tanks might fit where, but I think its fairly doable. Enjoy the rest of the sailing season... Tim
Fwiw, Tim
"No discharge" ONLY applies to sewage ("human body wastes and the wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain waste")...it does not apply to gray water ("galley, bath, or shower water.") So your refit for the Great Lakes does not have to include gray water holding.
"No discharge" ONLY applies to sewage ("human body wastes and the wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain waste")...it does not apply to gray water ("galley, bath, or shower water.") So your refit for the Great Lakes does not have to include gray water holding.
Grey water
Thanks Peggie, Yep, I'm familiar. The B-361 has a separate shower pump to discharge grey water overboard anyway. Cheers, Tim
Thanks Peggie, Yep, I'm familiar. The B-361 has a separate shower pump to discharge grey water overboard anyway. Cheers, Tim
Tim, my 361
is a 2001 French version (hull 336). By measuring the tank I estimated that it is not more than 13 Gal but there was some room around it which could accommodate the 18 Gal in the American version. Good luck with your purchase.
is a 2001 French version (hull 336). By measuring the tank I estimated that it is not more than 13 Gal but there was some room around it which could accommodate the 18 Gal in the American version. Good luck with your purchase.
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