He hasn't been able to use his boat much this year and I was helping him this weekend, trying to start engine, westerbeke diesel. I am a fairly new boat owner with approx 1 year experience on a yanmar 1gm...His engine seemed to not be getting fuel to the engine so I tried bleeding air...never got fuel out the bleed screw. Then I notice LOTS of 'gunk" in the seperator at bottom of primary filter. I drained, cleaned the seperator and installed a new filter (Rayco I think). Now the electric fuel pump just ticks...I checked archives and see that the ticking noise is normal...but there is still no fuel getting from the tank to the filter..?,,Do I need to prime the filter for the pump to pull fuel in? or do I need to look at the fuel pickup in the tank? If so, how do I access the pickup screen? Any help would be appreciated. Mark
Helping a friend with Cat 30 Diesel issue
- Thread starter Mark P.
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Perhaps this will help
Hi. Im rather new to the marine diesel fixin too. However, I have a Yanmar YSB12 one cylinder in a Catalina 30. I have a Racor fuel filter that I changed out this year. (second season owning this boat) When you replace the filter, you are supposed to fill the filter with diesel and then screw it onto the mounting. I then found that there was a tightening nut on the top of the filter housing that had to be torqued down also. At first I did not tighten it enough and thou it didnt leak, it was drawing a bit of air into the system. I also had a priming bulb to squeeze to take fuel from the tank to the filter. You may not have one of those. It sounds like you were not picking up the fuel under vacuum to deliver it to the filter. thus, no fuel at the bleed fitting you mentioned. Im sure that you will get lots of info here from others more seasoned on this subject. I included a link that might prove useful also. One other note: you probably do not want to keep cranking the engine over for more than 30 seconds. Seems that if you have a water lift muffler system, it will cause cooling water to back up into the engine cylinders and cause trouble. You might want to research this system on the internet to learn about if if you already do not know. Most sailboats have these systems. Good luck and I know the "feeling" of working on something new to us newbies. John
Hi. Im rather new to the marine diesel fixin too. However, I have a Yanmar YSB12 one cylinder in a Catalina 30. I have a Racor fuel filter that I changed out this year. (second season owning this boat) When you replace the filter, you are supposed to fill the filter with diesel and then screw it onto the mounting. I then found that there was a tightening nut on the top of the filter housing that had to be torqued down also. At first I did not tighten it enough and thou it didnt leak, it was drawing a bit of air into the system. I also had a priming bulb to squeeze to take fuel from the tank to the filter. You may not have one of those. It sounds like you were not picking up the fuel under vacuum to deliver it to the filter. thus, no fuel at the bleed fitting you mentioned. Im sure that you will get lots of info here from others more seasoned on this subject. I included a link that might prove useful also. One other note: you probably do not want to keep cranking the engine over for more than 30 seconds. Seems that if you have a water lift muffler system, it will cause cooling water to back up into the engine cylinders and cause trouble. You might want to research this system on the internet to learn about if if you already do not know. Most sailboats have these systems. Good luck and I know the "feeling" of working on something new to us newbies. John
Diesel issue
Sounds like the gunk in the diesel may have clogged the screen in the end of the pick up tube. This can be accessed by removing the flange on top of the tank. I have no screen at the bottom of the pick up tube. More importantly it sounds like the diesel fuel should be cleaned (polished) or removed, tank cleaned and fresh fuel and filters installed and blead.
Sounds like the gunk in the diesel may have clogged the screen in the end of the pick up tube. This can be accessed by removing the flange on top of the tank. I have no screen at the bottom of the pick up tube. More importantly it sounds like the diesel fuel should be cleaned (polished) or removed, tank cleaned and fresh fuel and filters installed and blead.
Universal M25
In addition to what you did: 1. The bleed screw, I assume, is the knurled knob on the top, starboard side of the engine. To fully bleed the fuel line, you need to open up the nut on the top of the secondary filter housing, further aft on the engine, starboard side. I think it takes a 7/16 or 9/16 wrench. That's where the fuel will come out. 2. Check the bottom of the fuel pump housing. If the fuel pump is ahead of the Racor filter, it could have been gunked up, since there's a screen in the bottom of the pump housing. 3. Check the secondary fuel filter on the engine, In addition to the Racor, and replace it. 4. Since it sounds like the pump is working, don't bother to put fuel in the Racor, just put a new Racor filter in, open the bleed screw on the ENGINE secondary filter housing and turn on the ignition key which starts the fuel pump. No fuss, no mess, the fuel pump fills everything. You do NOT need to pump through the Racor with it's incredibly hard to use hand pump. Forget the nonsense about the pump pushing or sucking, it is designed to pump the fuel. Try my way first, if it doesn't work, let me know, but I've been doing this for eight years on the SAME engine. 5. Drain the muffler if you've been trying to start for more than 30 seconds. It's cheaper to do that than to have to buy a new muffler. John's right. Stu
In addition to what you did: 1. The bleed screw, I assume, is the knurled knob on the top, starboard side of the engine. To fully bleed the fuel line, you need to open up the nut on the top of the secondary filter housing, further aft on the engine, starboard side. I think it takes a 7/16 or 9/16 wrench. That's where the fuel will come out. 2. Check the bottom of the fuel pump housing. If the fuel pump is ahead of the Racor filter, it could have been gunked up, since there's a screen in the bottom of the pump housing. 3. Check the secondary fuel filter on the engine, In addition to the Racor, and replace it. 4. Since it sounds like the pump is working, don't bother to put fuel in the Racor, just put a new Racor filter in, open the bleed screw on the ENGINE secondary filter housing and turn on the ignition key which starts the fuel pump. No fuss, no mess, the fuel pump fills everything. You do NOT need to pump through the Racor with it's incredibly hard to use hand pump. Forget the nonsense about the pump pushing or sucking, it is designed to pump the fuel. Try my way first, if it doesn't work, let me know, but I've been doing this for eight years on the SAME engine. 5. Drain the muffler if you've been trying to start for more than 30 seconds. It's cheaper to do that than to have to buy a new muffler. John's right. Stu
which engine and which bleed screw
Mark, Do you know what year catalina 30 as well as which engine model/year? Also, you said "so I tried bleeding air...never got fuel out the bleed screw". Which bleed screw and where is it located (on top of the Raycor Fuel filter, on/at the injector pump/injectors, or on top of the engine mounted fuel filter housing?). Also, did you check the fuel valve on top of the tank -- point towards line to open)? On my 1988 with a Universal M25XP engine, I have found that once the fuel tank valve is open, the fuel will flow into the Raycor fuel filter when the plastic bleed screw on top of the Raycor filter housing is opened (my Raycor is a ..20.. model and takes the 24s filter and is mounted just to starboard and slightly below the electric fuel pump in against the forward engine compartment bulkhead). Also, generally the fuel pump is connected after the Raycor fuel filter, so whereas the fuel pump MIGHT be able to pull fuel through the Raycor filter, I always pre-fill it and then open the bleed screw on top until a little fuel comes out figuring that it is better to not run dry/over-extend the pump. However, once the Raycor is bled (I sometimes pre-fill the secondary (engine mounted fuel filter and sometimes do not), openning up the 'knurl knob' on the fuel bypass line after the 2nd filter and before the injector pump does the rest of the bleeding thanks to the electric fuel pump. therefore, I never bleed/open up any other fuel lines/bleeders. By the way, the pump clicking when the fuel pump is primed and pressure is about correct should be about 1 click per 3/4 of a second -- or about 11 clicks per 10 seconds. By contrast, if the pump is not primed or post pump pressure is absent (e.g. the knurl knob fuel bypass is open), the clicking is much much faster -- e.g. 10-15 clicks per 5 seconds. Hope this helps...
Mark, Do you know what year catalina 30 as well as which engine model/year? Also, you said "so I tried bleeding air...never got fuel out the bleed screw". Which bleed screw and where is it located (on top of the Raycor Fuel filter, on/at the injector pump/injectors, or on top of the engine mounted fuel filter housing?). Also, did you check the fuel valve on top of the tank -- point towards line to open)? On my 1988 with a Universal M25XP engine, I have found that once the fuel tank valve is open, the fuel will flow into the Raycor fuel filter when the plastic bleed screw on top of the Raycor filter housing is opened (my Raycor is a ..20.. model and takes the 24s filter and is mounted just to starboard and slightly below the electric fuel pump in against the forward engine compartment bulkhead). Also, generally the fuel pump is connected after the Raycor fuel filter, so whereas the fuel pump MIGHT be able to pull fuel through the Raycor filter, I always pre-fill it and then open the bleed screw on top until a little fuel comes out figuring that it is better to not run dry/over-extend the pump. However, once the Raycor is bled (I sometimes pre-fill the secondary (engine mounted fuel filter and sometimes do not), openning up the 'knurl knob' on the fuel bypass line after the 2nd filter and before the injector pump does the rest of the bleeding thanks to the electric fuel pump. therefore, I never bleed/open up any other fuel lines/bleeders. By the way, the pump clicking when the fuel pump is primed and pressure is about correct should be about 1 click per 3/4 of a second -- or about 11 clicks per 10 seconds. By contrast, if the pump is not primed or post pump pressure is absent (e.g. the knurl knob fuel bypass is open), the clicking is much much faster -- e.g. 10-15 clicks per 5 seconds. Hope this helps...
THANKS for all the info
You guys are GREAT! Lots of information here. The boat is a '87 Catalina 30, the engine is a westerbeke "I think", but it IS laid out the same as you guys describe your Universal. I could be wrong. 1. I'm glad you confirmed the clicking sound from the pump is normal. I was afraid we'd burned out the pump. 2. The cranking attempts were limited to 5 sec's at a time (I was aware of the water backflow issue to the cylinders). I'll be sure to drain the engine before any further attempts. 3. To clarify, the pump is installed AFTER the rayco "primary" filter. I tried opening the plastic bleed knob on top of the rayco and the knurled knob on the fuel bypass at the engine, both singularly, in sequence, and at the same time. I did not know about the bleed screw on top of the secondary/engine mounted filter. 4. I'll check the fuel tank pickup screen for clogs, drain the water from the engine, open bleed screw on the 2ndry filter (engine mounted) with the rayco bleed knob closed?(If I understood stu right)and see if I get fuel flowing. If not, I'll "prime" the Rayco and open the bleed knob on top of the rayco as well. 5. I think/hope the tank is ok. He never lets it get below 1/2 full ... 3/4 full now...but I'm sure the fuel is old...We may have to address that issue as well, but primary concern is getting fuel flowing to the engine. Thanks again for all your help. Hopefully I'll be able to reciprocate in the future. I'm doing lots of work on my O'Day 26 where this site has been a treasure trove of information. Fair winds, Mark P.
You guys are GREAT! Lots of information here. The boat is a '87 Catalina 30, the engine is a westerbeke "I think", but it IS laid out the same as you guys describe your Universal. I could be wrong. 1. I'm glad you confirmed the clicking sound from the pump is normal. I was afraid we'd burned out the pump. 2. The cranking attempts were limited to 5 sec's at a time (I was aware of the water backflow issue to the cylinders). I'll be sure to drain the engine before any further attempts. 3. To clarify, the pump is installed AFTER the rayco "primary" filter. I tried opening the plastic bleed knob on top of the rayco and the knurled knob on the fuel bypass at the engine, both singularly, in sequence, and at the same time. I did not know about the bleed screw on top of the secondary/engine mounted filter. 4. I'll check the fuel tank pickup screen for clogs, drain the water from the engine, open bleed screw on the 2ndry filter (engine mounted) with the rayco bleed knob closed?(If I understood stu right)and see if I get fuel flowing. If not, I'll "prime" the Rayco and open the bleed knob on top of the rayco as well. 5. I think/hope the tank is ok. He never lets it get below 1/2 full ... 3/4 full now...but I'm sure the fuel is old...We may have to address that issue as well, but primary concern is getting fuel flowing to the engine. Thanks again for all your help. Hopefully I'll be able to reciprocate in the future. I'm doing lots of work on my O'Day 26 where this site has been a treasure trove of information. Fair winds, Mark P.
Probably a Universal
Based on year, it's probably a Universal. Color can determine -- if Brown, then Universal. As mentioned, don't forget to check the fuel-shut-off valve on top of the tank, could be the whole problem. Also, just in case, your draining the 'water lift' muffler, not the engine (which is to port of the engine). It has a small pet-cock on the lower aft starboard side of the fiberglass box. Good luck...
Based on year, it's probably a Universal. Color can determine -- if Brown, then Universal. As mentioned, don't forget to check the fuel-shut-off valve on top of the tank, could be the whole problem. Also, just in case, your draining the 'water lift' muffler, not the engine (which is to port of the engine). It has a small pet-cock on the lower aft starboard side of the fiberglass box. Good luck...
A couple of more comments, Mark
to your last post 2. don't drain the engine, drain the muffler as Bill says. 3. "I tried opening the plastic bleed knob on top of the Racor and the knurled knob on the fuel bypass at the engine, both singularly, in sequence, and at the same time." DON"T do that. All that does is let more AIR INTO the lines, which is exactly what you are trying to get rid of! Think of it this way: you WANT as closed a system from the fuel tank to the nut on the engine filter housing as possible. You are trying to get rid of air inside the lines, so it needs to be closed from the tank, to the pump to the Racor to the nut. At the risk of repeating myself, if it's an M25 (which you should be able to see on the decal right aft of the thermostat housing, the M25s knurled knob doesn't do a thing (at least on my engine). The M25XP seems to use the knurled knob method. Similar but different engines, but I still believe the secondary housing nut is important. Why - because it is the first place for the air to get blown out of the system. The knurled knob is downstream of that on the way to the injectors. I find if I get the air out at the housing, the knurled knob doesn't do anything more, and it works. The nut on the secondary filter housing is the only place it bleeds properly for me. And, I do not bother filling the new Racor, that's what the fuel pump is for. It's not so hard, but I gotta admit I took me too long to learn how easy it really is. I put it off for six months because I was (I admit it!) afraid to do it. Once done, it's child's play. "4. I'll check the fuel tank pickup screen for clogs, drain the water from the engine,..." Drain WHAT water from the engine? I assume you mean the muffler. The rest of this paragraph is OK. Good luck, keep us posted. Stu
to your last post 2. don't drain the engine, drain the muffler as Bill says. 3. "I tried opening the plastic bleed knob on top of the Racor and the knurled knob on the fuel bypass at the engine, both singularly, in sequence, and at the same time." DON"T do that. All that does is let more AIR INTO the lines, which is exactly what you are trying to get rid of! Think of it this way: you WANT as closed a system from the fuel tank to the nut on the engine filter housing as possible. You are trying to get rid of air inside the lines, so it needs to be closed from the tank, to the pump to the Racor to the nut. At the risk of repeating myself, if it's an M25 (which you should be able to see on the decal right aft of the thermostat housing, the M25s knurled knob doesn't do a thing (at least on my engine). The M25XP seems to use the knurled knob method. Similar but different engines, but I still believe the secondary housing nut is important. Why - because it is the first place for the air to get blown out of the system. The knurled knob is downstream of that on the way to the injectors. I find if I get the air out at the housing, the knurled knob doesn't do anything more, and it works. The nut on the secondary filter housing is the only place it bleeds properly for me. And, I do not bother filling the new Racor, that's what the fuel pump is for. It's not so hard, but I gotta admit I took me too long to learn how easy it really is. I put it off for six months because I was (I admit it!) afraid to do it. Once done, it's child's play. "4. I'll check the fuel tank pickup screen for clogs, drain the water from the engine,..." Drain WHAT water from the engine? I assume you mean the muffler. The rest of this paragraph is OK. Good luck, keep us posted. Stu
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