Help with Repairing Rudder

[bxdobs]

Hunter 23.5 ... rudder split open along trailing edge ... approx 2 feet long 1/2" wide max

Looking for recommedations:

A) suggested product(s) to fill/seal said split

b) suggested product(s) to refinish rudder ie (paint or other)

c) discussion relating to if the rudder should be filled with spray foam or other before repair

issue: rudder fills with water and becomes to heavy to be lifted out of the water with the rope pull

 

[NYSail]

I would be worried about the overall integrity of the rudder at this point. Fixing the skin may hide a problem that will manifest at the worst time. If water is getting in the rudder in the first place, there is a problem. And if water is in there during cold winter, the insides will be destroyed from freezing.

Why not call Hunter directly.

 

[bxdobs]

This boat has never seen Salt water ... never been in the water during the winter ... the rudder has been inside the house for 5 months so is well dried out ... the damage I believe was due to the boat sitting idle for 6 months in the water with the rudder raised ... one side of the ruder is sun bleached and the other side is damaged from water moss? (rough as sandpaper) ... tapping on the rudder sounds consistant ... there are no cracks other then the one on the trailing edge ... as for Hunter I haven't had much luck calling and or emailing them.

 

[sailingdog]

I'd second what NYSail said. Why did the rudder split in the first place? How is the rudder constructed?? Did the water intrusion damage any of the interior rudder structure?? Is this a kick up rudder??

Photos would be useful.

 

[kenkindy1]

My 98 240

Hi, I've got the same scenario on my 98 240. I've rubbed some glass off the end of the rudder retrieving the boat from the water. I'm sure the pressure of the water squeezed water into any voids in the rubber through this opening. My split is on the aft edge. I'm considering one of the IDASAILOR replacements available on this site.

 

[bxdobs]

I just pulled the rudder out of storage to take a closer look at it ... sorry should have done that before giving the details … my memory appears to have slightly exaggerated the damage ... the rudder is 5' long ... it appears to be constructed from 2 pieces of Fiberglass(?) and bonded with some sort of epoxy(?) (the bonding material is white and extremely hard) ... the rudder is hollow at the point where the crack is located roughly 1' up from the bottom and extends another 1' up the trailing edge ... the opening is only 1/4" max where the joining compound is totally missing ... the crack is restricted to the seam … I don't see any signs of fiber so expect that its only the compound that bonds the 2 pieces that has been displaced ... as to how this damaged occurred is only a guess (this is a used boat so I don’t know the complete history) ... being that the bottom portion of the rudder is hollow it probably has a tendency and or designed to flex … I expect that normal use and or contact with the ground could cause the seam to crack and over time without any maintenance, has expanded the damage to the point of displacing some of the seam compound. Either way there appears to be no other damage to the rudder so I believe this should be repairable with the right product(s). The closest marine store is a 6 hr drive from where I live (one way) so I am looking for some constructive ideas please and thank-you.

 

[WTA]

A Good time to make emergency spare rudder

I have a '98 240 and just got finished with a patch job on my rudder (got in some water that was a little thin). After my unintentional brush with the bottom, I got to thinking what would happen if I lost the entire rudder on an extended trip. It would really be a long motor home with no rudder to steer with.

Anyway, while I had the stock rudder off doing the repair, I used it as a pattern and made an emergency backup out of 3/4 inch plywood doubled up so the overall thickness is 1.5 inches same as the head of the stock rudder. With some fiberglass on the outside for strength and waterproofing I feel like it is a workable spare, although it may now be as aerodynamic as the original. I am going to store it in the area behind the aft berth and hope I never need it, but at least I know it is there if I do.

 

[blue noser]

my rudder on my 25 mac is also pretty much screwed, after talking with some fibreglass folks and chatting on line i am going to split mine right apart and refill, just go to a reputable marine glass shop to get advise and the product to use, i also find a 6 pack of beer adds to my constuction cofidence, not sure if you need to do all this but if i were going to heed any i would stick with the beer lol

hope this helps

bn

 

[bxdobs]

I just received a reply from Hunter Marine: ... they are telling me to fill the hollow with foam then seal the seam with epoxy or bonding putty then add a layer of glass over the seam.

As I am not familiar with marine products can someone please give me an idea where I can find more information on Marine; Paint, Epoxy, bonding putty, Fiber glass

The Questions that come to mind:

I am expecting that Marine Paint should be able to withstand water/sun and be able to be applied to fiberglass/epoxy/putty?

Are there Epoxy/putty products that are water proof?

I presume Fiberglass cloth is virtually the same other then the tightness of weaves? Is there special resin required for Marine applications?

What kind of foam products are available that won't damage the rudder ... some foams expand as they cure (the last thing I would want is to split the rudder open because the foam overexpanded)?

 

[Ross]

You surely do need some help here. I believe that the most respected source of information is from West Systems.
http://westsystem.com/ss/

They can provide in their literature most of the answers that you need. Hunter gave you the needed proceedure and West can supply the "how to" details. In answer to your question concerning glass cloth there is a vast variety of glass fabrics but a few have been accepted as adequate for boat repairs. These folk show the array of products available. http://thayercraft.com/index.htm.
These people also supply the materials needed for boat work but they presume user knowledge. http://www.uscomposites.com/products.html

 

[BobM]

Sounds like you need some MarineTex underwater epoxy. That will close up the crack no problem.

 

[catsailor]

Good points on the foam, MarineTex

Sounds like you need some MarineTex underwater epoxy. That will close up the crack no problem.

I really like West System for the versatility the whole system gives, but that may be more than you want to get into. Still look at their web site. Good information.

I have always know MarineTex as a filler and do not know of its secondary bonding characteristics. I do not know.

I would be afraid of expanding foam - I think you are right. It would also get into your bonding area. I think I would place the rudder leading edge down and fill with slightly thickened epoxy (that is where the versatility of epoxy with separate thickeners is nice), then clamp between boards (wrapped in wax paper etc so that it does not stick).

There are some hardware store epoxies that are very water resistant, but not water proof. I would avoid them without detailed knowledge.

As for glassing the joint, that is not as simple as they have said. Glass will not bend to a sharp trailing edge. You would have to grind off some edge, epoxy and glass, and and then re-shape. Not easy. I believe that if you fill with epoxy you will get all of the bonding you need. It sounds like the factory missed a spot and the stress of curing became too much.

It should go without saying that you should probably spread the crack a bit and sand the insides as much as practice.

 

[sailingdog]

Without fixing the problem that caused the rudder to split initially, repairs are pretty worthless IMHO.

 

[catsailor]

If not ice - ruled out, I gather - or curing induced stress, then what?

Without fixing the problem that caused the rudder to split initially, repairs are pretty worthless IMHO.

Your thoughts, please? I have seen this before, and the cause seems have been in the initial lay-up. Perhaps heat. Perhaps a contaminated bonding surface.

Not a job for 5-min epoxy, but fixable.

Another option, of course, is simply to fill the space, fair the trailing edge to some extent, and not worry over it. This isn't the America's Cup!

 

[sailingdog]

Without knowing what the rudder and damage look like, it's hard to say what to do about it. I did ask for photos way back...

 

[filthy liberal scum]

Had similar problem with mine years ago.

don't know how old the boat is, but, what you have here is probably the inherent way rudders used to be built. and may still be for all i know. shells were formed then epoxied together. then were filled with open cell structural foam. open cell foam was bad choice since it will absorb moisture. no matter how much sealer,caulk etc you use to try to keep the water out there's the problem of different materials expanding and contracting at different rates.
i fixed mine basically the way hunter suggested. i split it apart then removed the open cell foam then epoxied it back together and then reinforced with glass both on leading and trailing edges then refilled with closed cell foam.
this rebuild was done 15 years ago and i haven't had any further problems.

I filled mine with dow great stuff. one thing that you may have to take into consideration is the internal construction of the rudder post. mine had three 3/4" pipes welded to the 2" post at 90 deg to the post. since the dow isn't as rigid as the original foam i had to glass a web like sheet over all of them to spread the load over a larger area so as not to have the possibality of crushing the foam. as i said, it seems to have worked well as i've had no more problems in 15 years.

 

[bxdobs]

I don't see how to insert a picture here ... it appears like I need a website to point the insert picture to???

Anyway ... I have been attempting to determine how to finish the rudder (paint) and now totally confused with the Marine suppliers ... there are so many #%#@#% ways to go ... All I want is to sand the Moss and Sun damage and then cover the Marine-Tex epoxy repair and the surface with a durable coating that will withstand water sun UV etc.

The surface appears to be just gel coated fiberglass ... White ... and not sure if it has to be primed first or if there is a product I can just apply one time.