Help with a Windlass question

thinwater · Feb 20, 2017

If you ALWAYS deploy at least 25 feet of rope, the BBB chain is well within the ABYC working load for rope rodes. 5/8" is assumed (nothing smaller) with a WLL of 1,114 pounds. Testing (I did a bunch for an article) suggests that is very close to your load at 60 knots.

However, if you go to 150', you will be anchoring on all-chain most of the time, and that changes the potential loads dramatically. For all-chain, ABYC calls for 2800-pound WLL, which in grade 30 BBB is 3/8". G43 would get you to 3,900 pounds WLL. 5/16 WLL is only 1,900 pounds. The forces when breaking out an anchor in chop will also go up, since there is no stretch. The force on the anchor also goes way up. Yes, catenary helps, but only if there is enough chain out and the weather is not too strong.

However, if you can be disciplined about using a >25-foot snubber, you will never see a WLL over about 1,500 pounds--more like rope--and you'll fine (5/16 WLL = 1900). This is the problem with changing from combination rode to all-chain--the gear was not engineered for it.

So I wouldn't worry too much about the BBB/G43 thing. 5/16 BBB is fine as long as you use a snubber, which you should anyway for other reasons.

thinwater · Feb 20, 2017

RWSlater said:
Thanks, great info. I was actually going to get spliced in 50' of Brait (which I really wanted to use), but read in the owner's manual that Brait shouldn't be used, only 3 strand nylon. Under normal conditions, where I plan to be, I can't see myself paying out any more than 70'or 80'. Storm conditions more. I'm using a 65# Mantus. Roger on the snubber, always.

That's some serious anchor!

Not all windlasses like brait.

Consider a long splice (irony splice) if you have any trouble getting the splice to pass. Otherwise, a back splice is good.

http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_75/features/Rope-to-Chain-Splice-Test_12172-1.html

Gunni · Feb 20, 2017

The operative term here is "long" snubber, 25 ft is the new rule. NW Fronts that sweep the Abaco in the winter can be ferocious. Roger on that heavy anchor. Set her hard, set her deep. She won't want to move.

Ron20324 · Feb 20, 2017

Lewmar will not know which size chain your windlass is set up to use. They can tell you where the number is, you find it then cross reference. Otherwise, take yours to West and see what fits it. Do NOT go by what someone else has! My 1000 came with a 1/2 - ? gypsy, but I bought the 9/16 - 5/16 one to use.

Chain links have differing wire thickness, the ID of the link and width and length of the link are all factors to consider. Look at West online for help.

Kings Gambit · Feb 20, 2017

thinwater said:
That's some serious anchor!

Not all windlasses like brait.

Consider a long splice (irony splice) if you have any trouble getting the splice to pass. Otherwise, a back splice is good.

http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_75/features/Rope-to-Chain-Splice-Test_12172-1.html

I've made up the number 4 version on my kedge using 9/16" 3-strand nylon to 5/16" BBB chain; I feel I have to remake the splice after every season of much use. The exposed strands show abrasion along the chain lengths. Also, after not many deployments, the individual strands get twist past the last chain link and snarl up into a rat's nest for a short distance to the collar. I'm not sure how to fix this. Correct, that splice will not go around the windlass (Sprint 1000) gypsy w/o some help if in use there, but the two strand long-splice to my normal bower will; however, mine is on 5/16" SS chain which does not kink like galvanized chain. My snubber is 25 ft of 5/8" 3-strand nylon on a galvanized thimble (one version) w/ SS chain hook shackled to it. The snubber is led straight back over the bow roller to a snatch block on a pad-eye, then to a deck cleat. I also have a lazy man's version where the 3-strand is bent (anchor bend) onto a SS ring (instead of spliced to a thimble) finished off with a bowline where the tail is whipped to the standing part.

skipmac · Feb 20, 2017

My old Simpson Lawrence Seawolf came with a manual giving similar chain specs to fit my gypsy and I can assure you that it's nonsense. Generally the most important dimension of chain to insure it fits a gypsy is the length of the links or the number of links per ft. These are NOT the same with 5/16"BBB and 5/16 G43. My SL will work with 3/8 BBB or 5/16 G43 which have almost identical number of links per ft.

On my gypsy there is a three digit number cast into the metal close to the outer rim, two of the digits relate some kind of part # or inventory #. The critical one is the middle number which indicates the size which runs around 6 to 9 if recall.

The best way to be 100% certain that a different type of chain will fit is to buy a 1-2' sample piece and run it around the gypsy to see if the links fit exactly in the pockets.

skipmac · Feb 21, 2017

RWSlater said:
Skipmac

Regarding where the number is on the gypsy, is it on the upper or lower half of the gypsy?
Do I have to take anything apart to find the number or can it be seen without disassembling it?

Hi Ron,

The numbers, about 3/8" high, are close to the rim of the gypsy. I think on the inside (the chain side) of the gypsy and not on the outside next to the case but to be honest I can't recall for sure and I won't be back at the boat for 2-3 weeks to verify. Also the numbers on my gypsy are only on one half, not left and right sides.

Does the current chain 5/16" BBB fit perfectly? Are you sure of the size? Reason I ask, that seems slightly on the small side for a 45' boat. My 42 Pearson came with the gypsy that fits 3/8" BBB or 5/16" G43.

skipmac · Feb 21, 2017

RWSlater said:
Skipmac and others

OK hold the presses, I found out WHERE the serial number is located (see attachment) , now I have to find out if I can get to it to see it.

If you're trying to get gypsy specs based on the SN that may or may not help since SL offered various size gypsies on their windlasses.

thinwater · Feb 21, 2017

Kings Gammit:

The #4 version is complete rubbish and was presented only for comparison. In my opinion it should be banished from all sailing texts as a terrible idea started by someone who didn't understand splicing. The #1 / #2 version is what you need. It will fly through the windlass like it isn't even there. The conventional back splice (lower #3) jams in many windlass.

The proper long splice (AKA irony splice) is describe in the referenced article and in Brian Toss's book.

Also in "Keeping a Cruising Boat for Peanuts"
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-book-store.html

Kings Gambit · Feb 21, 2017

thinwater said:
Kings Gammit:

The #4 version is complete rubbish and was presented only for comparison. In my opinion it should be banished from all sailing texts as a terrible idea started by someone who didn't understand splicing.

Well, I can say only that it holds and is fairly easy to make up quickly. How about some detail about correct splicing does it not conform with?

thinwater · Feb 21, 2017

Kings Gamit: First, I am sorry if I offended. I did not say you were rubbish. Your posting history is solid. But yes, I believe the shovel spice is rubbish. You listed the reasons:

It only last a year
It chafes
It won't pass the windlass
It makes a rat's nest

The irony splice will last years and has none of those faults. Additionally, you can use 5/8" line with 5/16" chain if you use the irony splice (9/16" line is not strong enough for use with 5/16" chain).

"I've made up the number 4 version on my kedge using 9/16" 3-strand nylon to 5/16" BBB chain; I feel I have to remake the splice after every season of much use. The exposed strands show abrasion along the chain lengths. Also, after not many deployments, the individual strands get twist past the last chain link and snarl up into a rat's nest for a short distance to the collar. I'm not sure how to fix this. Correct, that splice will not go around the windlass (Sprint 1000) gypsy w/o some help if in use there...."

RW Slatter:
The irony splice is better. I suspect Brian Toss knows more about splicing than most of us. I also think the winch manufacture suggests the simpler splice because they figure that is all we are capable of.

And 9/16" rope only has a WLL of 790 pounds. That is about the 65% of the 60 knot load on a 45-foot boat, not considering chafe or UV damage. 5/8" is the conservative recomendation for a 45' boat. Just sayin'. Don't let the chain size or windlass dictate.

(from West Marine
Light Boat Medium Boat Heavy Boat 3-Strand Nylon Dia. Chain Dia.
41'–45' 37'–40' 33'–36' 9/16" 5/16" PC/BBB or 1/4" HT
46'–50' 41'–45' 37'–40' 5/8" 5/16" PC/BBB/HT

Help with a Windlass question

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