Help us all Understand proper preparation and cleaning options. Do's and Dont's you can offer?

[Carl Wonderful]

I know preparation is all important when it comes to all this stuff, which is why I'm going to such great lengths to fully UNDERSTAND the common cleaners and when and where to use them correctly. Also things like when its vital to sand/scuff in preparation for a next layer. I would like to combine all the info with the help of all of you to create a sort of chart with do' s and don'ts of common materials & preperation when doing common jobs for boat-owners. And hopefully this could help other people new to all this confusing stuff and save a lot of headaches and poor results due to ignorance or misinformation.

I'm using mostly Totalboat products for my specific issues currently so thats why I have listed them specifically.

I've been trying to figure out what cleaners (and when to sand) that I should be using and when. I've been doing a lot of research through books, research, talking to sailors and product companies and in forums.... I still am finding a lot of contradictions and confusion as far as what I thought would be a simple subject. I've been diving into epoxy, rust primers, epoxy primers, barrier coats and all of the different bottom coats for boats. I recently purchased a 1971 Catalina 22 that needs a lot of work so I've been repairing a rusty keel, need to redo the bottom paint, "bilge area" tabbing that is coming apart and lots of other projects.

I have learned a lot but am still so confused about a lot of things....recently I've been tying my head in knots trying to understand when to clean and how to prepare for my next layers of say epoxy primer or epoxy fair or rust equalizer layers etc...

I thought maybe I could list the specific ones that I've been struggling with to kick this off and also help me get moving in the right direction here toward my understanding this stuff.


Can anyone give some DO's and DONTS for specific things so we can try to find some universal answers and fully understand what we are using and how best to use them. Also if anyhting I've stated below sounds wrong..I'd be happy to hear what is correct and specifically WHY?

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This is my plan (with questions) for repairing a rusty keel (swing keel) from cataline 22...

1. Rust Primer (totalboat) on a rusty keel (c22 - Iron Keel).
a. I know the rust needs chipped away then grinded down to bare shiny metal first then apply rust primer
b. Should I have cleaned with totalboat dewaxer and surface prep first?
c. Let sit 24 hrs. After a couple hours its good to soak up any "pools" of the rust primer if they form in low spots.
d. Do I clean with somehting before my next layer os Total Protect epoxy primer? I've heard to just use water, but sometimes there can be white powerdy stuff, so you just wire brush that off? Do I need to clean with acetone or anyhting before moving on?

2. Total Protect (Totalboat epoxy primer)
a. Next layer is epoxy primer.
b. Apply and let dry how long until next layer of total fair?
c. Can I get a chemical bond (or only mechanical bond) with the total fair or do I have to wait 24 hours, then sand, then clean up with something, then apply totalfair epoxy fairing compound?

3. Total Fair (Total boat epoxy fairing)
a. Clean or sand first? and if so with what?
b. Mix 1:1 total fair until green.
c. Apply to fill and pits of missing materal on keel.
d. let sit 24 hrs then what? [ Next another coat I want to be the total protect again, and also 2 more consecutive total protect layers on top of that]


4. Total protect again (epoxy primer)
a. So I sand the total fair then clean up with acetone or just water or soap and water?
b I think I can get a chemical bond with the totalprotect layers if Ido them right when I see a fingerprint but do not lift up any primer, right? So thus should be pretty simple and quick going.

5. Then a final bottom paint.
a How and what?

Was that a good plan?
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Specific products that have been confusing me as to their USES and also when NOT to use them. Looking for details and WHY things are the way they are.

6. Totalboat Dewaxer and Surface Prep.
I've been told I should not use this between primers and epoxy and fairing products... But why not... and what is it for? Is this only to be used as the first step just as a really good initial cleaning and thats it. Then should acetone be used for most other things in between most steps?

7. Acetone. Any definite DO's and DONT'S with acetone?

8. Soap and Water. When is soap and water your best bet and WHY? Also whaht kind of soap?

9. Denatured alcohol. When...when not.. and why?

9. SANDING. Any good DO's and Dont's for when to sand and when not to sand. Also after sanding you need to clean up the sanding residue always right? So with what and how and why?

10. Scotch brite green scuff pads. Use em...dont use em..?

Hopefully that wasnt too confusing or chaiotic. Just want to UNDERSTAND better and I know these things are a big issue for a lot of people. I see a ton of confusion and rightfully so. Its overwhelmiing and theres a lot of confusing directions even right on the cans and all over the internet. So any info is helpful!!!

Thanks!!!!

 

[dlochner]

Almost all of your questions can be answered by reading the instructions for the product you are using. The technical information for TotalBoat products are on their website. Look at the page for the product and there will be a link to the technical information. Read it and follow it. When there is conflicting information, always trust the company's advice over some anonymous person on a forum. If you have a problem and call the company the first question will be "Did you follow the instructions on the product?" If the answer is no, then you are pretty much on your own.

If there is any question of wax, grease, or oil being on the surface, clean with a wax and grease remover before sanding. Sanding a dirty surface will tend to grind the dirt into the surface making it more difficult to remove.

Maroon Scotch Brite pads are more abrasive than the green ones. I often use those between coats when varnishing. As for sanding the primer coats, read the label and follow the instructions. Pay attention to the recoat times.

Acetone is not the magic solvent. It is good for some things and not so good for others. It is also much less toxic than commonly believed, after all, it is the primary ingredient in nail polish remover. Acetone does not do well with grease, it does remove oils from some woods. It can clean up epoxy. Distilled white vinegar also works and is much cheaper.

Good luck.

 

[Carl Wonderful]

Almost all of your questions can be answered by reading the instructions for the product you are using. The technical information for TotalBoat products are on their website. Look at the page for the product and there will be a link to the technical information. Read it and follow it. When there is conflicting information, always trust the company's advice over some anonymous person on a forum. If you have a problem and call the company the first question will be "Did you follow the instructions on the product?" If the answer is no, then you are pretty much on your own.

If there is any question of wax, grease, or oil being on the surface, clean with a wax and grease remover before sanding. Sanding a dirty surface will tend to grind the dirt into the surface making it more difficult to remove.

Maroon Scotch Brite pads are more abrasive than the green ones. I often use those between coats when varnishing. As for sanding the primer coats, read the label and follow the instructions. Pay attention to the recoat times.

Acetone is not the magic solvent. It is good for some things and not so good for others. It is also much less toxic than commonly believed, after all, it is the primary ingredient in nail polish remover. Acetone does not do well with grease, it does remove oils from some woods. It can clean up epoxy. Distilled white vinegar also works and is much cheaper.

Good luck.

Appreciate your response.

Its funny, I did call totalboat about a few things that were very confusing in their can and data sheet directions. They technician helped with some things... but he agreed that he was even confused and had to ask others at the company and call me back. Then told me they will try to change the working instructions so they make sense. This was specifically about using total protect with total fair.... which are common products tha tare used together. The directions on totalfair state you can re-coat with epoxy WITHIN 24 hours and for primers and paint to wait AT LEAST 48hrs. The funny thing is that total protect is labled as an EPOXY PRIMER right on their can and everywehre else. So in this case calling the compan left me even more confused. I did not really get a good clear answer back about this specific thing. So I'm just really frustrated and left confused and seem to have no better understanding of these products and the how and why to a lot of questions.

Could you list some specific things you DO use acetone for?

So what would I use to clean up sanding residue in order to recoat with an epoxy primer or soemthing like this?

 

[Carl Wonderful]

Also sometimes the instructions just say something like "clean up the sanding residue" or something vague like that. Then I think oh well you can use anything... but then I find out you can NOT use this or that but must use blahblah... I find this a lot and am just left wondering and worrying all the time instead of just getting the work done and moving on. Do you know of any resources that would sort of help me underestand all of this? I have books and lots of stuff but keep finding confusion and dead ends as far as clear step by step info for some of theses processes.

 

[thinwater]

I suggest focusing on function more than the specific words they use. This is causing you to over analyze.

For example, a 2-part epoxy paint is fundamentally epoxy; the word paint is only a description of how something is used and not a description of what it is or how you prep for it, since there are many types of paint chemistries. However, in a 1-part epoxy paint, the word epoxy is only describing the type of resin, and it will not chemically bond with 2-part epoxy because the epoxy is fully cured in the can. As a rule, epoxies can go one over the other within 24 hours (even sooner is better) without sanding, because they are not fully cured and will chemically bond. After that they need sanding, like anything. If they are going to be painted with non-epoxy paint, they need to be scrubbed to remove amine blush (even if they say they are blush-free--don't take a chance) before sanding or the sanding will just drive it in (soap and water or acetone if a small area). Then sand.

Yes, you always dewax first. But I think it is unlikely anyone waxed a rusty swing keel and presumably you scrubbed the whole bottom well before starting, so it's probably done. Heck, if it is an old boat, it's unlikely anyone has waxed it in a long while.

When using rust converter I like to hose it off and brush it while doing this to remove excess phosphate and residue, if there was considerable corrosion that I was using the converter to eat off. If you had it shiny and only used a little converter, probably not. But dry it and get a coating on it, because it can rust again if you leave it outside in the rain for a few days.

For example removing sanding residue depends on what comes next; if you are applying a primer, blowing off with compressed air or wiping off with a rag is probably enough, but if you are varnishing a rag barely dampened with thinned varnish (tack rag) can be the very best. Certainly you do NOT wipe with acetone or anything else that can damamge the coating.

 

[dlochner]

Epoxy takes a long time cure, the curing process continues even after the epoxy is hard to the touch and sandable. Because it isn't fully cured applying an epoxy primer over epoxy fairing compound can be done and the epoxy paint and epoxy fairing compound will bond together. Paint has a different chemistry some paints need to be applied to a fully cured surface, others can be hot coated or applied to an epoxy primer before the epoxy has fully cured, it really depends on the specific paint and primer.

There are several ways of removing sanding dust, a vacuum cleaner, a tack cloth, wiping with a solvent or wiping with a clean damp cloth. Solvents are used because they evaporate more quickly than water, make sure the solvent doesn't affect the paint that was applied or will be applied.

I tend to use denatured alcohol more than acetone for surface cleaning in small areas or use TB's Grease and wax remover.

One of the best resources out there for the DIY crew is Andy Miller's BoatWorksToday YouTube channel. He does a lot of work with resins and paints and is very patient and clear in his explanations. Currently he is restoring a very old sailboat, so a lot of what he will be doing may be helpful with your project.

@thinwater is also a trusted resource.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Maroon Scotch Brite pads are more abrasive than the green ones. I often use those between coats when varnishing. As for sanding the primer coats, read the label and follow the instructions. Pay attention to the recoat times.

Not trying to veer this conversation off course but small amounts of Scotch Brite pads become embedded in the surface that's being sanded?

 

[dlochner]

Not trying to veer this conversation off course but small amounts of Scotch Brite pads become embedded in the surface that's being sanded?

The Scotch Brite pads are for light sanding, just scuffing up the surface and removing dust that settled on the wet varnish on the last coat. I've never had a problem with bits of the pad remaining on the surface. Use the Maroon, not green, pads. They are more abrasive and do not require as much pressure as the green ones to remove blemishes.

Green pads and soapy water work for removing amine blush from epoxy.

 

[jssailem]

With @thinwater