Help me decide on main & genoa halyards

[Rich Stidger]

I think my twelve year old original halyards are up for replacement. I have come to this conclusion because the genoa halyard end is worn from chafe and I know that resplicing used line is very difficult. The main halyard seems to stretch much more that I wish and allows a sizable sag at the bottom of the luff just above the boom after the sail has been hoisted and sailed for a while. I'm not sure if line stretch is something that tends to increase with advancing age or not, but I am assuming that new line would have less stretch.

According to my Hunter 40.5 spec's, both the main and genoa halyards are 7/16" and are "Spectra". No further description is given, nor is a manufacturer of the halyards stated.

New England Ropes manufactures a variety of line products that have Spectra (or HMPE) fibres. I am looking at Sta-Set X (low stretch) or T-900 (very low stretch) lines. There is also a line called VPC that may be suitable.

I am looking for opinions as to what specific line to buy.

For the main halyard I would like a line that is easy on the hands and has very low stretch. I use rope clutches to secure the halyard and I have read that the hi-tech lines (perhaps like T-900) don't hold well in clutches and that the largest possible line size should be used in the clutch. My Garhauer clutches are rated for 5/16 to 9/16 line. My halyard are currently 7/16" and I've had no problem with them and the original "Spectra" line.

The T-900 is much stronger than the Sta-Set X, so a smaller size could be used for the same original strength, but a smaller size line is harder on the hands and may not work as well in the clutches. But a smaller line would result in a smaller coil in the cockpit when the sail is hoisted. The T-900 is almost three times as expensive as compared to Sta-Set X, so I'm not sure if it is worth the extra cost.

The genoa halyard is raised in the spring and lowered in the fall. I have not noticed any stretch issues with that line, so maybe some Sta-Set X in that application would be fine.

Bottom line- has anyone researched lines for halyards and can you make any recommendations to me?

 

[Maine Sail]

I think my twelve year old original halyards are up for replacement. I have come to this conclusion because the genoa halyard end is worn from chafe and I know that resplicing used line is very difficult. The main halyard seems to stretch much more that I wish and allows a sizable sag at the bottom of the luff just above the boom after the sail has been hoisted and sailed for a while. I'm not sure if line stretch is something that tends to increase with advancing age or not, but I am assuming that new line would have less stretch.

According to my Hunter 40.5 spec's, both the main and genoa halyards are 7/16" and are "Spectra". No further description is given, nor is a manufacturer of the halyards stated.

New England Ropes manufactures a variety of line products that have Spectra (or HMPE) fibres. I am looking at Sta-Set X (low stretch) or T-900 (very low stretch) lines. There is also a line called VPC that may be suitable.

I am looking for opinions as to what specific line to buy.

For the main halyard I would like a line that is easy on the hands and has very low stretch. I use rope clutches to secure the halyard and I have read that the hi-tech lines (perhaps like T-900) don't hold well in clutches and that the largest possible line size should be used in the clutch. My Garhauer clutches are rated for 5/16 to 9/16 line. My halyard are currently 7/16" and I've had no problem with them and the original "Spectra" line.

The T-900 is much stronger than the Sta-Set X, so a smaller size could be used for the same original strength, but a smaller size line is harder on the hands and may not work as well in the clutches. But a smaller line would result in a smaller coil in the cockpit when the sail is hoisted. The T-900 is almost three times as expensive as compared to Sta-Set X, so I'm not sure if it is worth the extra cost.

The genoa halyard is raised in the spring and lowered in the fall. I have not noticed any stretch issues with that line, so maybe some Sta-Set X in that application would be fine.

Bottom line- has anyone researched lines for halyards and can you make any recommendations to me?

Researched this last year and went with Yale Vizzion. Unfortunately Vizzion is tough to find. If I were to do it today I would go with the VPC or Sampson XLS Extra for a good all round solution.

I do not personally like Sta-Set X and would never use it again. You can spend lots of money on halyards but VPC or the Samson XLS Extra or XLS Extra T (the T is for traditional white jacket) are both good products at a fairly decent price.

I do like a 24 lay cover which the VPC does not have and the XLS Extra does. There are soooo many choices.....!

 

[Rick D]

I went with Pelican Kripton-S and downsized to 3/8 since my original halyard was NOT Spectra as the book calls out. I wanted something that would run though the blocks easier and it does. I got a spool of it, replacing the genoa halyard, adding a spinnaker halyard and still have some left for other uses. It does hockle like the Sta Set X I had used as a replacement before, but not as bad. That was so awful I replaced it and gave it away to the local fire department. See the link:
http://www.pelicanrope.com/

PS: I did my own splice and it is a special one. You can find the instructions on line.

 

[Dave Groshong]

I agree with Maine, Sta-setX is a miserable line. We will match or beat anyone's advertised price on Samson products. The XLS extra is excellent, a lot of people like WarpSpeed too (a lot more expensive though):

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail-rigging.htm

 

[Jumpstart]

10MM VPC should work well. I used 8MM and 10 MM for halyards on my 29 footer. No stretch at all. I'm replacing the last halyard with this stuff http://stargear.net/Products/MovStar/movstar_ultraneema_10mm.htm .
I like the cover better and the line has a higher breaking strength than VPC.

 

[stephen Penny]

​

Suggest replacing the halyards with 7/16" Samson XLS at half the cost of Samson XLS Extra. Install new shackle with an eye at one end and a Flemish eye in the other end for the main, head and spinnaker at a relatively low cost. Replace same for the main and jib and spinnaker sheets, except ends were whipped vs. eye's. Huntersowner.com is a cost effective source to purchase these.

 

[Roger Long]

I agree with Maine, Sta-setX is a miserable line.

No argument here. I bought some for jib sheets because I was tired of constantly taking up on the jib after tacks. I discovered how miserable it was to work with on cleats after getting it home and never used it. I use the two lengths for jacklines because they lie nicely against the house sides on my boat and I don't need flat straps.

I went up to the bow on one of my last trips last summer and found that the bowline I had tied through the toe rail hole had come undone. The stuff is so stiff and with so much memory it will untie a knot like that even with no flogging or motion.

OTOH I have been perfectly happy with my regular Sta-Set jib and main halyards.

 

[Maine Sail]

Rich..

Rich,

Just remember that while the high tech halyards can have very low stretch, and high working load limits, your main sail luff may not and you can easily stretch it by over tightening it. I'm sure you would not do this but it at least bears mention with line that essentially has no "give" factor.. The main reason I went with Vizzion is that it absorbs little to no water, which is usually when I would experience the most stretch/creep in polyester products like Sta-Set X or XLS (not the Extra).

 

[Joe]

Consider Tapered Halyards.

Rich, First of all... don't get Sta Set X.

I recommend you investigate the advantage of building a "tapered" halyard. Here you can use a smaller diameter, single braid, high tech core such as Amsteel, or Technora, that is UV treated and runs well through the sheaves that you "cover" with something less expensive that works well in the clutch and is easier on the hands.

For my boat's jib halyards I covered an 80 ft 3/16 amsteel core with 40 ft of samson LS.
I found instructions for splicing the cover into the core at the Sampson website. I also put in a large eyesplice to "luggage tag" the shackle to the end.

Rich, here's a source that will explain a lot about this subject and offer you an assortment of cordage to choose from. I recommend calling these guys on the phone and discussing your opitions. www.apsltd.com They can advise you on correct line size and build it for you if you choose.

 

[NYSail]

had new halyards made last year. Rigger used amsteal (sp)... very light and strong. To improve hand, he threaded it through the core of Sta Set...

 

[tommays]

This good info as i will be buying 3 haylards for the Cal 29 and want to find something in the middle ground

On the C&C 35 we have T900 and for stuff that is NON-STRECH you have to do some pretty serious windup ,about 4" after the main is UP depending on wind speed

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

After looking at all sorts of line and trying several. I went back to SS wire halyards.

For boats that don't have rope/wire sheeves, take a look at the Marlow D2 Racing 75 line. It is far and away the best Spectra/Dacron halyard line I've run across. The V2 Racing Vectran/Dacron is even better.

All braided line looses performance over time. As much as 20% per year of braking strength. A 5 year limit on any mission critical line is not too conservative.

Get rid of your halyard jammers if you upgrade to a Spectra/Dacron halyard of smaller diameter. Rope jammers are certain death to these lines, they were designed for Dacron/Dacron and the loads that work for the Dacron line sizes. They don't treat smaller line at the same loads very nicely. If you stay with the 7/16" diameter that should be right for the sheeves you will be fine. If not, get Lewmar cluches that are sized for the new (smaller) diameter.

One way to deal with the tails being bulky in the cockpit is to use a line like Samson Warpspeed. Figure the length of the loaded part of the halyard to about 10-12 feet past your jammer. For most boats this will be more than 50% of the length of the complete halyard. Pull the core out of the cover until the halyard is full length. Now all you are coiling and stowing in the cockpit is mostly empty cover. No need for that $$$/ft rope in a coil doing nothing. You give up the ability to end for end the halyard but you are not paying for more rope that you need.

For halyards, I'm starting to favour knots over splices. The extra strength of a splice is not needed on halyards, they never see that much load in service. As we see more and more high-tech rope used for halyards we also see that the splices are much longer (deeper bury) than for simple double braid. In some cases this forces a reduction in line size such that the splice will run over the sheeve. If you keep the same line size as the old Dacron halyard, you have increased the strength by a factor of 2 or more. A buntline hitch at the shackle reduces the strength of the line to be sure, but the result is still stronger than the spliced Dacron you had. When it is time to end for end the line, you simply cut the shackle off and tie it to the other end of the halyard. Since most chafe is at the working end of the halyard and the bulk of the line is good, an extra 6 feet of line allows you to cut the knot off and retie several times over the halyard's life.

I don't tend to trust any line more than 5 years old. Enough line to cut off 5 buntline hitches gives me all the service life I could ask for in a halyard ...

Of course I expect my SS wire halyards to last longer than that ...

 

[Rich Stidger]

Well,it looks like I have some good info here. The only common thread is that Sta-Set X is not a great choice.

I think what I may have to do is to travel to some marine stores and actually put my hands on some of these products to get an appreciation for the real product.

I'm also trying to figure out if the original line is a relatively high-stretch line or if it is just worn out. Also I am thinking that I need a line with a rating about 7000#, but perhaps I could go as low as 6000#. I use the line to go up the mast so I want at least a 15:1 safety factor for my 200# mass.

​

If I buy a stronger line than I could go down to 3/8" instead of 7/16", and that would make a smaller coil in the cockpit and would be less of an arm-full when coiling, so that is an advantage.

Attached is a picture of my original halyard- the while one with the blue and yellow tracers. Can anyone ID this line? It looks a bit like the New England Ropes T-900, but that is a very low stretch line and mine does let the mainsail sag.
​

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

This good info as i will be buying 3 haylards for the Cal 29 and want to find something in the middle ground

On the C&C 35 we have T900 and for stuff that is NON-STRECH you have to do some pretty serious windup ,about 4" after the main is UP depending on wind speed

This is exactly why "low" or "non-stretch" line is not my choice for halyards.

Even SS wire stretches, but in wire the stretch is repeatable. For most of the med-tech lines (Spectra core) it is not. As you noted you have to wind the halyard up after the sail is set. If the normal sailing load is more than about 5% of the breaking strength (20:1) the line will creep and you chase adjustment all day.

For a 300# halyard load, that means a 6000# minimum strength halyard.

From Marlow:

Elasticity & Extension

Rope extension consists of several components.

Elastic extension: This is the recoverable component of the rope’s extension and is immediately realised upon release of the load

Visco-elastic extension: The contraction of a rope does not follow the same path as the rope’s extension. This results in an element of extension that is not immediately recoverable but will recover if relaxed for sufficient time. If the load on the rope is cycled, a hysteresis loop is formed which will exacerbate this element of stretch

Permanent extension: This is non recoverable. When the rope is initially loaded all the plaits, strands, and yarns become “bedded in”. This results in a small permanent extension. Most of these constructional effects occur within the first few loadings and have little effect on the rope after this time. In addition to this there are some permanent molecular changes that occur to the material that result in creep.

What we fight in recreational sailing is the Visco-elastic extension. Main halyards fit this almost exactly. There is sufficient time for this stretch to recover between dropping the main on Sunday and hoisting it the next Saturday. We then cycle the load on the line either with halyard adjustments or with the cunningham. After part of a days sail, the line is stable enough for the rest of the day so adjustments are in the elastic range.

To evaluate this on a boat, you hoist the main on Saturday morning. Mark the line at full hoist/tension and go sailing. You will probably end up having to crank the halyard up a couple of times during the day. Mark the halyard again at the end of the day's sailing. On Sunday morning neither the Saturday morning mark nor the Saturday evening mark will be correct. You will make fewer adjustments on Sunday and end up back at the Saturday evening mark. Put the boat away for the week and you will be back at the Saturday morning mark.

This is no big deal unless you want to repeat settings ... like for reef points. I like tack rings and a reefing horn at the gooseneck. Dropping the sail farther than needed to get the ring on the horn before re-tensioning the halyard makes getting the ring on harder and wastes time and energy grinding more halyard than I have to back up. I mark the halyard close to the winch so I know exactly how much to lower the sail at each reef point. Rope halyards are the worst in this case.

With a wire/rope halyard, there is only about 4 inches of rope past the wire tail inside the splice. Full hoist on Sat AM might be 1% of 4 inches different compared to after a days sail. It is not 1% of 35 feet different. The reef makers are on the tail that is only loaded when reefed so they are always close to right, they can be no more than little bit different since the total length of the rope tail in tension is so short (equal to deepest reef).

When you size a high tech halyard to get settings that are as repeatable as a wire/rope halyard you do not save much weight unless you spend $$$$ for PBO or another zero creep line. In fact in most cases, the equivalent stretch wire halyard replacement is heavier unless the cover is stripped. If you have to pay a rigger to build the high-tech halyard, you will spend more money for the new halyard than for a low-tech wire/rope replacement.

IMO the best option for those stuck with rope halyards is to not reduce line size by more than 1/16" and buy the lowest creep line in that size you can afford. Life is too short to deal with stretchy halyards!

 

[Rich Stidger]

Oh boy, now I'm getting confused!

I thought that a very low stretch line would mean that once I raise the halyard and tension it, I would not need to re-tension it. But if I read the post from Moody Buccaneer and tommays, it sounds like this isn't the way it works.

What am I missing here?

And if I stay with 7/16" line but the line requires a long splice, I can see where I could run into a problem with the thickness of the line over the sheave at the masthead. Unfortunately, both of my halyards are installed on my boat 150 miles away with chasers so that the lines are not exposed to UV or weather over the winter, so I can't get them to see the length of the existing splices.

I should add that I am not a racer if that is any consideration in selecting a halyard. I think that should eliminate the need for building a special tapered halyard. Replacement of my clutches to accommodate a smaller and stronger line is also out of the question budget-wise.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Oh boy, now I'm getting confused!

I thought that a very low stretch line would mean that once I raise the halyard and tension it, I would not need to re-tension it. But if I read the post from Moody Buccaneer and tommays, it sounds like this isn't the way it works.

What am I missing here?

And if I stay with 7/16" line but the line requires a long splice, I can see where I could run into a problem with the thickness of the line over the sheave at the masthead. Unfortunately, both of my halyards are installed on my boat 150 miles away with chasers so that the lines are not exposed to UV or weather over the winter, so I can't get them to see the length of the existing splices.

I should add that I am not a racer if that is any consideration in selecting a halyard. I think that should eliminate the need for building a special tapered halyard. Replacement of my clutches to accommodate a smaller and stronger line is also out of the question budget-wise.

The easy and most cost effective thing to to is to get the best 7/16" line you can afford and just use a buntline hitch instead of a splice. The hitch is very compact and if you "freshen the nip" every year with an end for end, you will be a happy camper.

I'm one of the few that happen to like the parallel core (next to impossible to splice) Sta-set as a cost effective lower stretch halyard and knot combo. It stretches, but it does so in a repeatable manner.

You probably have about 60 feet of line under tension. 1% of 60 feet is just over 7 inches. Less is better, but you will always have some.

 

[tommays]

Well

I will be buying rope myself BUT cant see spending T900 (WHICH IS GREAT) money and have seen a friend spend BIG money on some stuff that had jackets so slippery it would NOT work well on the winches

I just try and point out that LOW is lot more than advertisement hype would have you believe

 

[Stu Jackson]

Sta-Set???

I'm one of the few that happen to like the parallel core (next to impossible to splice) Sta-set as a cost effective lower stretch halyard and knot combo. It stretches, but it does so in a repeatable manner.

Yes, it sure does - repeatedly stretches once it's up!

My StaSet halyard lets my mainsail luff scallop on a regular basis, which is exactly what started Rich out on his question. And Stay-Set-X is, as many have noted, is no good.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Yes, it sure does - repeatedly stretches once it's up!

My StaSet halyard lets my mainsail luff scallop on a regular basis, which is exactly what started Rich out on his question. And Stay-Set-X is, as many have noted, is no good.

I was referring to the Sta-Set X. I had no problems with it, it is advertised as a lower stretch Dacron/Dacron line and is an improvement over a double braid construction. I was surprised to find this parallel core construction on a new Catalina halyard.

Our friend Brion Toss used to recommend it as a cost effective upgrade.

Compared to Spectra, Vectran, or PBO it is terrible, but it is lower stretch than regular Sta-Set. I have not compared it to Marlowbraid but I suspect they are close.

I've out of the business too long to keep up with it but it would be interesting to compare stretch vs price for halyards to see if my feelings are still valid.

 

[Jumpstart]

You will most likely have to adjust you main halyard when the wind picks up no matter what material you use. The luff of the main will stretch as dacron stretches when the wind picks up, also when you crank on the backstay and/or sheet the main hard. For zero stretch you could get a Cuben fibre main and Dynex Dux halyard. Hardly a realistic option.

A vectran blended line is probably the best bet since vectran doesn't creep. 3/8 Vizzion and VPC, fall into this category. 10 MM VPC has the best tensile strength at 6500lb where Vizzion is 4500#

Dyneema cored lines do creep but have higher tensile strengths. There are 2 grades of Dyneema SK75, SK78 and Allied Chemicals version called Spectra. 10MM Maxibraid plus has a breaking strength of 10,000 lb and an absolutely superb 24 plait thin cover. Some people pre stretch this type of line by tying it a pole and their bumper and put it under load for 24 hours. Again, this stuff is pretty expensive but is great handling and strong line.

Bottom line is that 10MM VPC is your best bet for price performance. Milwaukee Rigging sells it all the the time on Ebay at $1.23/foot. I scored some last year on a West Marine rigging sale at $81./ft. Good stuff , a little slippery at first but lost the slipperiness as it got used. All polyester lines are o'k but they will definitely stretch a lot more and you probably would next to upgrade to 12MM - 14 MM to get the same performance