Help educate an old man on shoal keel

[RussC]

I was looking at an ad for a North American 23 the other day and realized I don't understand all I know about the term "shoal keel". I noticed they often refer to this style keel as being a "shoal keel with centerboard". So with this style of keel, is ALL the ballast in the trunk? in the centerboard? split between the two? or does it depend on the make/model of boat as to where the weight is placed?

Thanks,
Russ

 

[kloudie1]

In the NA 23 and Sprit 23 from Glasstron, the ballast is lead shot, epoxied into the fiberglass keel trunk. The centerboard or swing keel has only enough weight to make it go down and stay down at speed; I recall mine weighed about 40 pounds. I think most shoal draft/centerboard boats are built that way. The beauty is that there is no trunk intruding into the cabin. Some large boats like the Tartan 37 and the old C&C 40 were offered that way too. The board, being relatively light is easy to handle compared to a lead or iron swing keel. Many boats are offered with a shoal keel and no movable board. Usually a shoal keel would be longer (fore/aft) and have more ballast than the same model standard keel. The additional ballast of the shoal keel is to keep the "righting moment" about the same as the std keel even though the keel is shallower.

 

[rgranger]

A shoal keel just means that the keel is not to deep. It is a subjective term. I don't know this model of boat but most centerboard (dagger board) boats have most of the ballast in the keel and not the centerboard. That is done so the board is easier to raise without a lot of mechanical assistance.

 

[Dennis Kitchen]

Hi Russ,
The term "shoal" is relative to draft. A shoal keel could be 1'6" on a small boat or 4' on a larger boat. For example on the 30 to 36 foot Cherubini Hunters the "shoal keel" is 4' and the standard is 5'3".
The design of "shoal" keels must compensate for having the C.G. higher up by adding more weight by the use of fins, weighted centerboard, bulbuous shape at the bottom or longer length along the hull, ie low aspect ratio, or some combination of the above. The centerboard may or may not be weighted, depending on the designer and the required ballast.
So yeah, it depends on the make and model where the ballast is located.

 

[shemandr]

I think "dependent on the make/model of boat..." is the best answer. You could have ballast in the trunk, or keel stub, with the board just acting as a foil. Or the centerboard could be most of the ballast. I'd be willing to wager that, if the centerboard is made of metal, it is the lion's share of ballast.

 

[RussC]

In the NA 23 and Sprit 23 from Glasstron, the ballast is lead shot, epoxied into the fiberglass keel trunk. The centerboard or swing keel has only enough weight to make it go down and stay down at speed; I recall mine weighed about 40 pounds. I think most shoal draft/centerboard boats are built that way. The beauty is that there is no trunk intruding into the cabin. Some large boats like the Tartan 37 and the old C&C 40 were offered that way too. The board, being relatively light is easy to handle compared to a lead or iron swing keel. Many boats are offered with a shoal keel and no movable board. Usually a shoal keel would be longer (fore/aft) and have more ballast than the same model standard keel. The additional ballast of the shoal keel is to keep the "righting moment" about the same as the std keel even though the keel is shallower.

Excellent info there. especially as you've owned this particular boat that I was interested in. The NA/Spirit 23 looks like a great boat for us. I'd actually like to find a nice Spirit 21 that the owner was willing to part with, but the NA/Spirit 21 or 23, or the Catalina 22, are certainly on the top of my short list at the moment.

Thanks to all for the great shoal keel education. this really helps me in my search for the perfect "yacht" for us to explore Oregon lakes with next summer.

Russ&Jennifer

 

[Benny17441]

Shoal keel means a boat model with a short draft designed to sail in shallow waters. These keels are usually ballasted fixed keels and the weight is compensated by an elongated shape, a bulb or a wing configuration. Now for trailer boats and those larger boats that may need to operate in shallow waters the short keel/centerboard combo is a good design. The purpose of the center board is exclusively to reduce side drift or slip and help the boat point into weather while the short fixed keel holds most of the ballast. The righting momentum arm of the short keel is not as large as with a deep keel and that causes the boats to be somewhat tender but they can be sailed with the centerboard up and as a matter of fact when sailing downwind it is advisable to raise the centerboard to reduce drag. Most centerboards are relatively light and I think Kloudie has given the best description "only enough weight to make it go down and stay..." I would stay away from ballasted swing keel boats (old design with maintenance difficulties; sail very well but dangerous in strong currents as keel play can destroy fiberglass trunk) and water ballasted boats (it is a design to pair a larger size with a manageable trailerable weight, cannot sail with an empty ballast tank and they are tender) Keel and ballast designs are compromises to allow boats to be perhaps comfortable, easily trailered and to sail in shallow waters and others to have maximum draft and ballast to obtain maximum stability and optimum pointing ability. A not often seen design in larger boats is the dagger board or ballasted dagger keel.

 

[kloudie1]

Russ, I have a lot of good memories of my Spirit 23. Sailed it a lot on Lake Pontchartrain and out as far as Biloxi and the Mississippi Gulf Islands.. She was a fine sailing tough boat. I kept it in the water year round and had a bout of blisters on my 1978 model. (I bought it new) when it was about 4 years old. Corrected that with a barrier coat of coal tar epoxy and had no further problems. She had a good strong rig with shrouds and stays bigger than the normal 23 foot boat. Mine had a pop top which was very nice to sleep under, especially with a mosquito screen over the whole thing. Normal things leaked until properly bedded.. side fixed ports and life line stanchions and chainplate deck penetrations.. A very comfortable little boat for two people.

 

[RussC]

Thanks again Kloudie1. The one NA23 that I've seen for sale is over 400 miles from me, and I'm learning that sellers seem to have a different vision from mine of what constitutes "nice condition", which is what I'm after. If/when I find one a bit closer I need to make a personal inspection. There is a very nice Spirit 21 in a guys yard about 2 miles from me. been there for several years under a cover, but I haven't been able to convince him to sell it to me….. yet.

 

[Tom G P-21]

Other shoal keel centerboard boats to keep an eye out for while shopping are O'day 192 and 222. Also Precision 21 and 23 but I don't think they are very common out west. I like the shoal keel/centerboard configuration on my Precision.

 

[RussC]

How's the cabin seated headroom on those boats Tom? it seems like many in this size range have none for a 6 footer like myself.

 

[Tom G P-21]

Had to look up the headroom specification on the Precision website, Precision 21 is 50 inches and the 23 is 54 inches. I am 6' 4" and can sit comfortably on the berth in the 21. The 23 definitely has more room to move around in and more of them have been made. The nice thing is Precisons are still in production and supported by the company.

 

[RussC]

Thanks Tom. I've put the info in my very long list of notes in case I come across one nearby for sale.

Russ

 

[FastOlson]

While out shopping, watch for an ODay 25 with the keel/CB combo. Prices are generally low and they are a lot of boat for cruising with a small family. Also the Tanzer 22....
Loren

 

[RussC]

While out shopping, watch for an ODay 25 with the keel/CB combo. Prices are generally low and they are a lot of boat for cruising with a small family. Also the Tanzer 22....
Loren

I called (twice) on an o'day 22 from CL a wile back, but as yet no reply [shrug] the larger o'days look like decent craft, but are just so dang heavy to use as a trailer sailer. I do like the Tanzer, and lots of them around, but I think I'd only conceder one of the 200 or so that were made as centerboard/keel boats, but I haven't seen one for sale yet.

At the top of my short list, this week, are the Spirit 21, the Catalina 22, or the Macgregor 25. unfortunately nobody has wanted to sell me one bad enough as yet.

Russ

 

[rgranger]

I used to own a MacGregor V22-2 and also a Mac V21. The V22-2 are much faster and have a lot more room inside. They are also easy to launch. On all of the cast iron swing keels... (Catalina 22, Mac 25, or Mac 22) make sure you take a hard look at the condition of the keel before you buy. The laminate should not be swollen... and no signs of rust leaking through. They are a bitch to work on (I've done it several times) ... also look at the keel trunk ... especially at the pivot bolt. If the pivot bolt hole is elongated, then this boat has had a hard grounding. It is fixable but you don't want to pay premium price for a non-premium boat. Also look for cracks around the keel trunk... also a hard grounding... that can also be repaired but... if you want to sail more than fix ... take a hard look. Then look at the quality of the sails, trailer and outboard. Cosmetic things can be fixed with a pressure wash and some paint.

 

[RussC]

Thanks fgranger. As a matter of fact we're headed out the door, in a few more minutes, on another 200 mile adventure (each way) to look at a Mac 25. looks to be in very nice shape in the photos, but we all know how that works. thanks for the tips.

Russ

 

[Bad Obsession]

My Compac 23 has a true shoal keel. I do not have a centerboard.

My draft is 2'3". Boat weights around 3500 pounds.

I like the fact that I don't have any working parts below the water line. I don't have a centerboard pin to break or a cable to break.

If you like the Spirit 23 and the Catalina 22, look at the Compac 23. They have a nice cabin arrangement and the company is still in business. Plenty of them are around and for sale on the internet too. The price can run from 5K to the price of a new one.

 

[RussC]

Wheww. another long boat inspection adventure. Just got home, shortly after dark thirty. The only thing different this trip is that something followed me home
84' Mac 25 in very solid original condition. it needs the usual tlc after sitting a few years, as the po went through a recent battle with cancer and now needs the money more than the boat. We can relate. he obviously has taken care of this Mac, and even though it's a bit dusty and could use some new running rigging etc, it still shows a lot of the earlier love.
Full report and more photos in a day or two, but right now the hot tub is calling our names real loud.
A spot check in route, on the way to her new home:

Russ

 

[justsomeguy]

Congratulations!
Hot tub, baby!