heavy weather sailing

Maine Sail · Oct 23, 2008

ChuckThomas said:
(Before I get flamed for being out in conditions described below please note that sometimes things just happen. I normally would never be out in that kind of wind. It’s just not fun. I only have a few years of experience and I am glad the admiral was not with me. Also note that I was tethered and had on life jacket.)

A few weeks ago, I participated in a single handed distance race here in Lake Ponchartrain, thus no motor and no autopilot could be used. The race was about 35 miles.

The day started off nice. After sever hours into the race the weather started to deteriorate and thunder storms came up. Lots of rain at first. Winds went from nice 10-12 southerlies to 30-35 northerlies in a period of about 2 hours. The 30+ winds lasted for almost four hours. Waves at peak were about 4 to 5 feet with a period of about 5 seconds. Quite a ride.

At 15 kph I double reefed and rolled up my head sail. Everything was fine at that wind speed. I was able to move at about 5 knots. At 20-25 kph the boat’s sailing characteristics started to change dramatically. I had never been in that kind of wind before so I was trying to figure out best way to setup sail configuration. With just a reefed main sail and no head sail I could not get enough momentum to tack. I had to run downwind a bit and using a preventer to slow jibe the other way. It was as if the boats profile was preventing me from pointing into the wind. I tried to let out a little head sail but the sail’s flogging was unbearable. When winds got to over 30 kph all I could do was to turn wheel hard to windward and sort of heave to. Thank goodness I had about 8 miles of sea room to lee shore. I wound up drifting downwind about 4 miles. At one point I started to drop anchor but did not want to go forward. (The lake is only about 15 feet deep) Once the wind came back down to 15, I was able to regain control and finish race. I won my class because I was only one to finish. Everyone else had good sense and went in.

Questions and food for thought.
1) Has anyone else experienced the change of sailing characteristics of their boat at higher wind speeds? Is caused by the hull?
2) When I tried to reef the head sail should I have put snatch blocks further forward on the sheets to keep sail from flogging? I have never done this before but had never been in that kind of wind.
3) I have to admit being a little anxious when winds were hitting above 30. Thank goodness I had a radio so I could listen to football game.
4) How does one climb off of a lee shore in those conditions. (I know that one should not be there in first place.)

Thanks for the input.

BTW. My boat is a 1981 33ft Hunter setup for cruising and not racing. Also this was my first race in my boat. I have only been in a couple of other races as crew.

You would have been better to triple reef the main and pull about 10-15% of the genny back out or just put the main away all together. Many mid 80's boats, like yours, are quite head sail driven. Sailing on main alone they don't like to balance well unless you are off the wind.

You will need to adjust your genny cars and fall off the wind a little more than you would with full canvas..

Next time try a little more head sail and less main or no main..

sailingdog · Oct 23, 2008

Chances are that the problem was really caused by not having any headsail up. Without any head sail up, it can be hard to point well, and almost impossible to tack without taking special measures. Most boats need some head sail up to point well. With just the main sail, double reefed, the center of lateral resistance was probably forward of the center of effort, which means the boat will tend to weathercock—and will have a fair bit of weather helm.

To tack in such a situation, it may be necessary to ease the main sheet a bit as you come through the eye of the wind, so that the boat can come through the eye of the wind successfully. This is a pretty common problem on many multihulls.

As for trimming a heavily reefed jib... you need to move the foot blocks forward to keep the jib as flat as possible. If you don't keep the jib as flat as possible, what happens is that it generates a lot of heeling force rather than driving the boat forward.

In stronger winds, you really want to depower the sails as much as possible, using the outhaul, cunningham, boom vang for the main, the backstay tensioner, jib car fairleads, and jib sheets for the jib. Tightening the outhaul, or the reefing lines for the clew reefing cringle, will tend to flatten the foot of the sail. The cunningham will tighten the luff of the sail and the boom vang will help flatten it. The backstay tensioner will also help by bending the mast, to help flatten the mainsail, and to tighten the forestay, helping flatten the jib. Moving the jib cars forward help keep the sail flat. Installing line-controlled genoa/jib fairleads is often a good idea, since it makes it possible to adjust the jib car fairlead position from the cockpit.

I upgraded to line controlled genoa cars on my boat last spring. You can see the installation in this photo. No jib sheets in the blocks when it was taken since the Genny wasn't on the boat yet. The hardware is made by Garhauer, and is stock gear on several lines of boats nowadays, including the new Catalinas.

Be aware that if you try to use a roller furling headsail with more than about 30% of the sail rolled up, it will not have a very good shape for heavy winds, since it will tend to bag and not keep the nice and necessary flat shape desired in heavier winds. One good solution to this is to have a GaleSail aboard...which hanks on around the furled jib or genny and allows you to have a fairly small, very heavy weight storm sail.

It also acts to prevent the headsail from unfurling, since it wraps around the furled headsail.

As for a storm trysail... I'm not a big fan of them. I think having a deep third reef makes far more sense and is far easier and safer to handle on most boats.

YMMV. I hope this helps.

RichH · Oct 23, 2008

The other posters have offered good analysis and recommendations. Besides their comments, also consider to drop the traveller to help get all the 'vectors' more forward ... how much to drop the traveller? 'pressure on the helm' from heeling will tell you how much. You'll lose your 'sailing angle' a bit to the wind, but the boat will 'drive harder' into the oncoming waves and you'll sometimes make better 'progress' and a better 'ride' at a lower sailing angle.

Since your lake is only 15 ft. deep, I'd be quite sure that your problem wasnt the wind but the extremely steep chop generated in such shallow water. Unlike ocean sailing high steep chop in shallow bays and lakes really requires more sail area exposed to generate enough POWER to 'bust' through the waves and make progress 'to weather'. To get such power, sometimes when deep reefed one has to ease the outhaul (on that particular reef point) to INCREASE the DRAFT and 'power up' the sail a bit. Most reefing 'sets' will totally flatten (depower) the upper portions of the sail and sometimes you need this extra power for 'punch'.

Indeed you can only roll most roller furled sails down by 30%; but, if you drop down and head off a bit (while opening the traveller) you can sometime 'get away' with only 50% of a roller furled sail exposed (the fullness generated by partly 'furling' will be used to good measure by not beating so close to the wind.
In this 'drop down' method you gain towards your goal by 'scalloping' through the waves - heading up to meet the crests and bearing off to avoid burying the bow into the next wave.

You dont state the make/model of your boat; but, if it is a 'masthead' rig ... it would probably in most cases sail well into the wind with NO main (because you dont have a triple reef) and just the genoa (but rolled down to where the 'shape' starts to become 'god-awful'). If your boat is a 'masthead rig', next time out in the higher wind ranges, experiment with sailing on solely the genoa (and with varying amount of roll-up); you might be quite surprised how well your boat can 'point' on just a partly rolled genoa. All boat models and type react differently when sailing ... but its a good 'trick' to know when the conditions get 'dicey'.

BTW - for ease of adjustment of the fairleads and a safety item when singlehanding, consider to install some Fairlead cars that are adjustable from the cockpit ... so you can accurately adjust the 'jib sheet to clew lead angle' from the safety of the cockpit .... http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=37 (click on the small illustration/pic to better view them) ... such a system can terminate to cam cleat on the caprail.

Glad you made it and congrats on your 'win'. The more you go-for-it in 'heavy weather' the more you will learn and faster you will learn.

hope this helps.

Franklin · Oct 23, 2008

You can have pads (forget the sailing term) installed on the luff of your headsail that will enable the headsail to furl much nicer and give you much better shape when "reefed". I had them installed on my new jib and love it.

sailaway78 · Oct 23, 2008

I was out there

I was out there the weekend you are talking about. We were west of the causeway, and had sustained winds over 25 and gusts to over 30. Quite a ride. That damn lake does know how to get snotty. I agree with all of what has been said, above. I might add, give just the jib a try, with the main furled. Roll the jib up about 30% or so. Unless you have a fractional rig, the jib is the power, and the boat will handle and respond much better on jib alone than on main alone.

Paul F · Oct 23, 2008

Sailing on the 33

I sail the same boat, a 1980 model. First, congrats on hanging in there and finishing the race. The short, high waves likely gave you more control problems than the wind. This boat is very much a masthead rig. Most of the power comes from the genny. The main is more of a directional, balancing sail. Because of the balancing I do not like to take it down completely. As other posters have said, lower the traveler until the boat sails comfortably, not over healing. Do all you can to flatten the main, apply the boom vang (recommend a ridged boom vang), as was said tie the reefed main clue down to the boom. (Do not tie the middle reef lines tight or the sail will rip. They are just for show, some sailors do not use them at all,) With to much additional wind my boat heads up into the wind which means it is time to take in another reef. As other posters have said you can sail without the main, but then you have less control and balance. The mainsail points the boat up into the wind and is useful for that purpose.

Reefing the furling genoa is all the challenge you talked about. With this boat you need the foresail for power and need to deploy as much sail as you feel comfortable with. The problem with the 33 is the snatch blocks are not easy to use and placing them on the rail does not bring the jib sheet inside where it can do the most good. I have not done this but (in thinking about it) maybe bringing the sheets inside the side-stays and restringing them might give a better workable angle to the furled genny. Today, I keep my snatch blocks far to the stern to achieve the best angle possible outside of the side-stays. It sounds like you toughed out a rough one. Keep on wining.

knowitall · Oct 23, 2008

Just to keep everyone informed - proper name for reefing ties is nettles.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nettles

Franklin · Oct 23, 2008

Franklin said:
You can have pads (forget the sailing term) installed on the luff of your headsail that will enable the headsail to furl much nicer and give you much better shape when "reefed". I had them installed on my new jib and love it.

Just remembered, foam luff. Add a foam luff to your head sail and you will notice a hugh improvement in how it furls and reefs.

Maine Sail · Oct 23, 2008

Harken..

Franklin said:
Just remembered, foam luff. Add a foam luff to your head sail and you will notice a hugh improvement in how it furls and reefs.

Harken has a newly designed furler that furls the luff independent of the head and foot. Both the top and bottom attachment points are swivels and when you furl the sail the foil spins first taking the belly out of the sail until the foot and head begin to follow suit on the swivels.

We have this newly designed furler and it really is a great performer. I don't have a rope or foam luff yet can still furl my 150 well beyond 50% and still have some decent performance as long as I adjust my cars and balance the rest of the sail plan accordingly.

I don't hear a lot of people talk about this innovation but it really works!

sailingdog · Oct 23, 2008

Re: Harken..

Maine Sail-

Is that the Harken Mk IV furler you're talking about???

Maine Sail · Oct 23, 2008

sailingdog said:
Maine Sail-

Is that the Harken Mk IV furler you're talking about???

Yes its the MK-IV. We bought it last year and it's been wonderful. My buddy Chris has one too and we both dislike the furling line that came stock with it. Harken is a good company though and they did change the line due to customer complaints on more recent models....

All the furlers built these days are very good but this is about to coolest innovation I've seen in furler technology in a while. Seeing as I'm usually to stubbron to change out to a smaller head sail the flattening effect is one I like because it saves me time. Don't get me wrong it is NO replacement for a smaller sail when needed but it does keep a nice sail shape when reefed..

sailingdog · Oct 23, 2008

Chuck-

Usually, I wrap and tie the furled headsail with a sailtie and remove the genny sheets to use on the gale sail.

JoeWhite · Oct 23, 2008

Regarding the adjustment of the fairlead for the jibsheets during high wind - I move them towards the stern. This will spill the wind from the top of the jib and reduce heeling. In the above post it is recomending to move them towards the bow. Which is correct?
salingdog quotes "As for trimming a heavily reefed jib... you need to move the foot blocks forward to keep the jib as flat as possible. If you don't keep the jib as flat as possible, what happens is that it generates a lot of heeling force rather than driving the boat forward".
I would think that you do not want the jib to be flat as it will catch more wind and heel more. So low wind time - move blocks forward and high wind time move blocks aft.

And yes I also find that during high wind time it is impossible for me to tack specially when only main is up. I sometimes chicken jibe to be safe.

I am glad that you did not quit - I am sure that your confidence has soared, you have surprised yourself - good job.

Stillraining · Oct 23, 2008

sailingdog said:
Chances are that the problem was really caused by not having any headsail up. Without any head sail up, it can be hard to point well, and almost impossible to tack without taking special measures. Most boats need some head sail up to point well. With just the main sail, double reefed, the center of lateral resistance was probably forward of the center of effort, which means the boat will tend to weathercock—and will have a fair bit of weather helm.

To tack in such a situation, it may be necessary to ease the main sheet a bit as you come through the eye of the wind, so that the boat can come through the eye of the wind successfully. This is a pretty common problem on many multihulls.

As for trimming a heavily reefed jib... you need to move the foot blocks forward to keep the jib as flat as possible. If you don't keep the jib as flat as possible, what happens is that it generates a lot of heeling force rather than driving the boat forward.

In stronger winds, you really want to depower the sails as much as possible, using the outhaul, cunningham, boom vang for the main, the backstay tensioner, jib car fairleads, and jib sheets for the jib. Tightening the outhaul, or the reefing lines for the clew reefing cringle, will tend to flatten the foot of the sail. The cunningham will tighten the luff of the sail and the boom vang will help flatten it. The backstay tensioner will also help by bending the mast, to help flatten the mainsail, and to tighten the forestay, helping flatten the jib. Moving the jib cars forward help keep the sail flat. Installing line-controlled genoa/jib fairleads is often a good idea, since it makes it possible to adjust the jib car fairlead position from the cockpit.

I upgraded to line controlled genoa cars on my boat last spring. You can see the installation in this photo. No jib sheets in the blocks when it was taken since the Genny wasn't on the boat yet. The hardware is made by Garhauer, and is stock gear on several lines of boats nowadays, including the new Catalinas.

Be aware that if you try to use a roller furling headsail with more than about 30% of the sail rolled up, it will not have a very good shape for heavy winds, since it will tend to bag and not keep the nice and necessary flat shape desired in heavier winds. One good solution to this is to have a GaleSail aboard...which hanks on around the furled jib or genny and allows you to have a fairly small, very heavy weight storm sail. It also acts to prevent the headsail from unfurling, since it wraps around the furled headsail.

As for a storm trysail... I'm not a big fan of them. I think having a deep third reef makes far more sense and is far easier and safer to handle on most boats.

YMMV. I hope this helps.

Oh brother here goes the neighbor hood...what?... your not going to flame him dog?

Sorry couldnt resist...

... and yes you deserved it... :dance:

Welcome aboard SD...I think...

Chuck....FWIW I had the same issue but with just the head sail up...each boat is going to be different to ballance..and as stated by the above posts that is where you and I needed more balance in our sail plans we were presenting to the wind...you didnt have enough pull and I didnt have enough push...get out there again and try it again now knowing a little more ..same as me..aint learning cool!!!..

I cant wait to get out there again its the only way to see if it works.. I'll bet you a six pack you felt good about comming through it didnt you...and your now more confidant not only in yourself but your boat for doing it too

Great post ...if anyone flames you use the ignore tool ..you wont see any more of their posts anymore.

You can sail with me anytime..Ok

sailaway78 · Oct 23, 2008

Bye the way Chuck

That is a really good boat. Have you had it offshore yet. Seadance and Peter have that exact same boat. I helped bring it to Biloxi from Cape Coral. We cut straight across the gulf, and I was pretty impressed. The Cherubini Hunters are some of the best Hunters ever built.

Brian M H23 · Oct 24, 2008

JoeWhite said:
Regarding the adjustment of the fairlead for the jibsheets during high wind - I move them towards the stern. This will spill the wind from the top of the jib and reduce heeling. In the above post it is recomending to move them towards the bow. Which is correct?
salingdog quotes "As for trimming a heavily reefed jib... you need to move the foot blocks forward to keep the jib as flat as possible. If you don't keep the jib as flat as possible, what happens is that it generates a lot of heeling force rather than driving the boat forward".
I would think that you do not want the jib to be flat as it will catch more wind and heel more. So low wind time - move blocks forward and high wind time move blocks aft.

And yes I also find that during high wind time it is impossible for me to tack specially when only main is up. I sometimes chicken jibe to be safe.

I am glad that you did not quit - I am sure that your confidence has soared, you have surprised yourself - good job.

When you have a full headsail, moving the cars back makes the headsail spill air from the top. As you roll it up, You are depowering that way, so most go to getting the sail flat to keep what little sail area they have out, drawing. It's hard to get nice looking twist in a rolled up sail.
In addition, as you furl the sail, the cars essentially "go back" (foot goes forward) a LOT , so you need to go forward to get anywhere close to the right trim

sailingdog · Oct 24, 2008

Joe-

As Brian explained, the problem with a roller reefed sail is that the foot has moved forward a lot... especially if you're reefing it down to a postage stamp... and the sail will have fairly lousy shape, because that is generally the case on a roller reefed sail if you've reefed more than about 30%. If the fairleads are left where they were or moved aft—the remaining headsail won't provide any drive to the boat and it will flog the leech of the sail to pieces. Most roller reefed sails will be pretty baggy, which will tend to generate a lot of heeling force—so you do want to move the cars forward and flatten the sail as much as possible.

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