I'm thinking of buying and moving into a Hunter 450 but I'm curious to see if anyone has experience enduring a wet and moderately cold winter on board. I'd like to hear some advice on equipment and learn about what sort of expectations I should have with heat, dampness and of course the electricity bills. Thanks.
Heat Humidity and Bills
- Thread starter Rooster20524
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I live onboard!!
I spent my first winter onboard my 2003 356.The size is different but I think the problems would be close to the same.The problems I had was: 1.Condensation.I had problems with condensation from the windows.I havent found a solution for that except wiping them alot.Also,I had to remove my V berth cusions because the sides of the mattress that were against the hull,got moldy.Also,I put some of those West Marine round dehumidifiers in the V and the Aft cabins and they helped some.Another problem is that the storage areas under the seats in the salon and anywhere else they have access to the hull.get condensation.I think for next winter I will cut air vents into these areas so cabin air can get in there. 2.Heating.I have Reverse Air for heating but when the water temp gets too low(under 50)it doesnt work that well and runs all the time.So I had to use some little space heaters that were controlled by a thermostat and had anti tipping shutoff while I was gone.The space heaters run up the eletric bill a bunch but I wanted to keep it warm.The Reverse air does still come on but it blows the heat from the heaters around and then shuts off. 3.Winter water.This is a pain in the ass but it is the price I paid for the life I chose.Once the water is turned off(I had no winter water where I was),I had to haul water to the boat.I bought 3 8 gallon cans and put 24 gallons a week into the tank for dishwashing and such.Showering is not done on the boat and between the bath house and the gym ,I was able to shower everyday and keep my water consumption low.I know what conservation is,thats for sure. Well,I hoped that helped. One more thing,because I lived on the boat during the winter,I didnt winterize the engine or the water systems.Good Luck
I spent my first winter onboard my 2003 356.The size is different but I think the problems would be close to the same.The problems I had was: 1.Condensation.I had problems with condensation from the windows.I havent found a solution for that except wiping them alot.Also,I had to remove my V berth cusions because the sides of the mattress that were against the hull,got moldy.Also,I put some of those West Marine round dehumidifiers in the V and the Aft cabins and they helped some.Another problem is that the storage areas under the seats in the salon and anywhere else they have access to the hull.get condensation.I think for next winter I will cut air vents into these areas so cabin air can get in there. 2.Heating.I have Reverse Air for heating but when the water temp gets too low(under 50)it doesnt work that well and runs all the time.So I had to use some little space heaters that were controlled by a thermostat and had anti tipping shutoff while I was gone.The space heaters run up the eletric bill a bunch but I wanted to keep it warm.The Reverse air does still come on but it blows the heat from the heaters around and then shuts off. 3.Winter water.This is a pain in the ass but it is the price I paid for the life I chose.Once the water is turned off(I had no winter water where I was),I had to haul water to the boat.I bought 3 8 gallon cans and put 24 gallons a week into the tank for dishwashing and such.Showering is not done on the boat and between the bath house and the gym ,I was able to shower everyday and keep my water consumption low.I know what conservation is,thats for sure. Well,I hoped that helped. One more thing,because I lived on the boat during the winter,I didnt winterize the engine or the water systems.Good Luck
Use a Dehumidifier
This comment is based on years of experience. Those low-wattage spaceheaters that are sold at marine stores aren't very good at combating mold, mildew, and moisture. In the Northwest using these spaceheaters will cause the humidity to rise well above 70%RH and probably into the 85% range. This range is very condusive to growing "stuff"! The RN needs to definitely be below 50%RH to combat mold and mildew. The best solution I've found to combat mold and mildew is a dehumidifier. Currently I'm using a Maytag 45 Pt. Electronic Dehumidifier Model M7DH45B2A. The 45 pint model has a defrost cycle and will operate down to 35%RH but typically is a tad higher like around 40%RH. The lower the RH setting the higher the cost to operate but the lower setting does a better job. Features to look for with a dehumidifier: Energy Star rating Automatic defrost Low %RH setting Good Guarentee Operation: Remove the bucket and tape the shutoff lever which acknowledges the presence of the bucket back so the unit will stay running. Place the dehumidifier on a countertop and run a drain hose into a sink and you're good to go. The interior will smell fresh as a daisy and you will have a lot less mold and mildew. The problems with belongings against the hull, enclosed spaces, etc. still apply because the air must circulate. On a 45-ft boat you might need two or maybe even three units depending on how closed-up you keep the boat. Low humidity and air circulation is the key. Guarentee - if you aren't familiar with how dehumidifiers run and what to do when things don't work right then opt for a long guarentee such as what the Maytag offers. Manufacturer - Maytag is made by Fedders which is sold at Wal-Mart but, oddly, seems to be American made (most stuff at Wal-Mart comes from China). Home Depot $189: http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?prod_id=259928&cm_mmc=1hd.com2froogle-_-product_feed-_-D27X-_-259928 Wal-Mart $137: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2025456 Energy Star - there are different ratings but a good rating will pay for itself over time, especially as electrical rates increase due to supply and demand. Hope this helps
This comment is based on years of experience. Those low-wattage spaceheaters that are sold at marine stores aren't very good at combating mold, mildew, and moisture. In the Northwest using these spaceheaters will cause the humidity to rise well above 70%RH and probably into the 85% range. This range is very condusive to growing "stuff"! The RN needs to definitely be below 50%RH to combat mold and mildew. The best solution I've found to combat mold and mildew is a dehumidifier. Currently I'm using a Maytag 45 Pt. Electronic Dehumidifier Model M7DH45B2A. The 45 pint model has a defrost cycle and will operate down to 35%RH but typically is a tad higher like around 40%RH. The lower the RH setting the higher the cost to operate but the lower setting does a better job. Features to look for with a dehumidifier: Energy Star rating Automatic defrost Low %RH setting Good Guarentee Operation: Remove the bucket and tape the shutoff lever which acknowledges the presence of the bucket back so the unit will stay running. Place the dehumidifier on a countertop and run a drain hose into a sink and you're good to go. The interior will smell fresh as a daisy and you will have a lot less mold and mildew. The problems with belongings against the hull, enclosed spaces, etc. still apply because the air must circulate. On a 45-ft boat you might need two or maybe even three units depending on how closed-up you keep the boat. Low humidity and air circulation is the key. Guarentee - if you aren't familiar with how dehumidifiers run and what to do when things don't work right then opt for a long guarentee such as what the Maytag offers. Manufacturer - Maytag is made by Fedders which is sold at Wal-Mart but, oddly, seems to be American made (most stuff at Wal-Mart comes from China). Home Depot $189: http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?prod_id=259928&cm_mmc=1hd.com2froogle-_-product_feed-_-D27X-_-259928 Wal-Mart $137: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2025456 Energy Star - there are different ratings but a good rating will pay for itself over time, especially as electrical rates increase due to supply and demand. Hope this helps
Condensation Issue
Paul, have you considered a small household type dehumidifier like one may purchase at Lowes or Home Depot? Not very good for summer use as they generate some heat which is welcome in Winter. Most versions have a collection pan which must be emptied frequently or you can drill the back of the pan, insert a barb, attach a length of tube and connect to an existing thru hull and it will empty itself while you are away.
Paul, have you considered a small household type dehumidifier like one may purchase at Lowes or Home Depot? Not very good for summer use as they generate some heat which is welcome in Winter. Most versions have a collection pan which must be emptied frequently or you can drill the back of the pan, insert a barb, attach a length of tube and connect to an existing thru hull and it will empty itself while you are away.
The problem is the footprint
I did look for a dehumidifier but I couldnt find one with the footprint I needed since I am on a 356.They were all too big.The majority of places I looked had humidifiers and not dehumidifiers.I need to look around again this year before winter.
I did look for a dehumidifier but I couldnt find one with the footprint I needed since I am on a 356.They were all too big.The majority of places I looked had humidifiers and not dehumidifiers.I need to look around again this year before winter.
I dont live aboard
I have a 430 and while I dont live aboard I have wintered the boat in BC, WA and OR. When in a marina I use two vornado space heaters, set on low and a low thermostat setting, one in the Aft owners cabin and one if the forward berth. both sit on the floor but with all doors open inside and the force of the fans I have not had a mold or mildew issue at all. when I am moored instead I use two manual dri-z-air contraptions in the same locations and lock two hatches open 1/2 inch that are covered by my dodger. I will get some surface mold under these circumstances but even getting to the boat every 2-3 weeks a little lysol and wiping down the teak surfaces that accumulate the mold keeps it in check. I have also learned that the older the heater the less efficient and the greater the electric draw. Does anyone know how long one of the dehumidifiers described above could run on low before depleting one of the large batteries in the bank?
I have a 430 and while I dont live aboard I have wintered the boat in BC, WA and OR. When in a marina I use two vornado space heaters, set on low and a low thermostat setting, one in the Aft owners cabin and one if the forward berth. both sit on the floor but with all doors open inside and the force of the fans I have not had a mold or mildew issue at all. when I am moored instead I use two manual dri-z-air contraptions in the same locations and lock two hatches open 1/2 inch that are covered by my dodger. I will get some surface mold under these circumstances but even getting to the boat every 2-3 weeks a little lysol and wiping down the teak surfaces that accumulate the mold keeps it in check. I have also learned that the older the heater the less efficient and the greater the electric draw. Does anyone know how long one of the dehumidifiers described above could run on low before depleting one of the large batteries in the bank?
Forced air diesel heat
I lived aboard through four winters in Seattle on a Passage 42. A good diesel forced air heater, like an Espar or equivalent, will handle your condensation and heating problems. Plan on refilling the fuel tank once or maybe twice during the winter. It's a little loud, and not cheap, but it is the best cure I found for conensation here. Second best cure: have a Sunbrella cover made that covers the boat from the aft cabin to the for'd cabin, out to the lifelines. You get a covered winter pation in the bargain. That and the heater almost dropped my condensation to nothing. ph.
I lived aboard through four winters in Seattle on a Passage 42. A good diesel forced air heater, like an Espar or equivalent, will handle your condensation and heating problems. Plan on refilling the fuel tank once or maybe twice during the winter. It's a little loud, and not cheap, but it is the best cure I found for conensation here. Second best cure: have a Sunbrella cover made that covers the boat from the aft cabin to the for'd cabin, out to the lifelines. You get a covered winter pation in the bargain. That and the heater almost dropped my condensation to nothing. ph.
Mighty Dry - Very Interesting Unit Bob
Checked out your link to Mighty Dry and even though it costs quite a bit there are some interesting features. With the stainless cabinet it appears like it might be designed for a marine application - at least the potential is there, and it has a good low RH setting. The compact size is a plus too. Paul mentioned his concern about the footprint of one like mine for household use and on a 35-footer that is a valid concern. When I take off for a week I just put mine in the dock box (yes, there is some room!) and set it up when I get back. If I were going for a longer trip then it would depend on when and where. For Puget Sound and Strait of Georgia in the late summer I'd leave it in the dock box. For Alaska anytime I'd take it along but stash it in the lazarette. Things turn green in Alaska. I didn't check if the Mighty Dry has an automatic defrost cycle or not. One concern with the Fedders or Maytag electronic units is the electronic RH setting will reset itself after a short power outage and I don't know of a way to short-circuit this change. One thing I've thought about is hotwireing the unit for 35% RH so there wouldn't be a problem but this is low on the list of priorities. It's easier to check on the unit whenever I go down to the boat to make sure it's set right. Again, nice link Bob!
Checked out your link to Mighty Dry and even though it costs quite a bit there are some interesting features. With the stainless cabinet it appears like it might be designed for a marine application - at least the potential is there, and it has a good low RH setting. The compact size is a plus too. Paul mentioned his concern about the footprint of one like mine for household use and on a 35-footer that is a valid concern. When I take off for a week I just put mine in the dock box (yes, there is some room!) and set it up when I get back. If I were going for a longer trip then it would depend on when and where. For Puget Sound and Strait of Georgia in the late summer I'd leave it in the dock box. For Alaska anytime I'd take it along but stash it in the lazarette. Things turn green in Alaska. I didn't check if the Mighty Dry has an automatic defrost cycle or not. One concern with the Fedders or Maytag electronic units is the electronic RH setting will reset itself after a short power outage and I don't know of a way to short-circuit this change. One thing I've thought about is hotwireing the unit for 35% RH so there wouldn't be a problem but this is low on the list of priorities. It's easier to check on the unit whenever I go down to the boat to make sure it's set right. Again, nice link Bob!
Second on Forced Air
Agree with Phil - Forced air provides warm and dry air which is really good for displacing humidity and for a liveaboard it would work really good. If we didn't have the Ardic forced air on the Alaska trip we whould have returned green. As it was the items stuffed in the far corners of the boat and in some lockers still suffered a bit. To tell you how bad it was in Alaska, when we go again I'm going to have forced air plus the dehumidifier, even on a boat with no more room. Also agree with Phil on the boat cover - it just plain helps. Water can find it's way into the deck core through little screw holes - like stantion screws, dodger "dot" fastener snaps screwed into the deck, small cracks around the hatch frames, genoa track bolts, and literally any fastener penetration. A cover helps stop this. And, while we're on the subject of "dry", put a dripless shaft seal in and keep the bilge dry too. The less water in the boat the better. So Rooster - how are we doing? Giving you what you want?
Agree with Phil - Forced air provides warm and dry air which is really good for displacing humidity and for a liveaboard it would work really good. If we didn't have the Ardic forced air on the Alaska trip we whould have returned green. As it was the items stuffed in the far corners of the boat and in some lockers still suffered a bit. To tell you how bad it was in Alaska, when we go again I'm going to have forced air plus the dehumidifier, even on a boat with no more room. Also agree with Phil on the boat cover - it just plain helps. Water can find it's way into the deck core through little screw holes - like stantion screws, dodger "dot" fastener snaps screwed into the deck, small cracks around the hatch frames, genoa track bolts, and literally any fastener penetration. A cover helps stop this. And, while we're on the subject of "dry", put a dripless shaft seal in and keep the bilge dry too. The less water in the boat the better. So Rooster - how are we doing? Giving you what you want?
Thanks everyone
Paul, John, Monty Mking, Bob, Phil. Thank you very much for you comments. There is no shortage of good experience driven advice here and I’ve been very careful to copy it all down and capture all the links. Though I’m grateful for the intelligence, I'm even more grateful for my renewed sense of assurance that I’m not taking some sort of a giant leap towards living on the margin and having to spend my winters damp and shivering waiting for the return of the more favorable sailing months. On this score, thanks for the peace of mind. Sean.
Paul, John, Monty Mking, Bob, Phil. Thank you very much for you comments. There is no shortage of good experience driven advice here and I’ve been very careful to copy it all down and capture all the links. Though I’m grateful for the intelligence, I'm even more grateful for my renewed sense of assurance that I’m not taking some sort of a giant leap towards living on the margin and having to spend my winters damp and shivering waiting for the return of the more favorable sailing months. On this score, thanks for the peace of mind. Sean.
Thanks for the feedback
It was appreciated. I've got a couple more items, one of which I should have mentioned before but forgot. Relative Humidity, RH meter: If you research the conditions that mold likes to grow in you'll find the literature says 50%RH and above seems to be a common denominator. Below 50%RH mold growth delines significantly; therefore it behoves one to monitor RH. I've got a digital temperature and humidity meter that I keep on the boat to see what's hapening. Check out Speedtech's EW-2 Forecast Mate for example. I have an older model of this: http://www.speedtech.com/asp/product.asp?recorprod=1&product=192&cat=46&ph=&keywords=&recor=&SearchFor=&PT_ID= Eratta: Just read a personal review of the Matag unit I have and the reviewer said that besides the Guarentee the other difference in the brands was the auto defrost. The reviewer said that the Fedders unit did NOT have the autodefrost capability. This is VERY important if you want to leave the dehumidifier running. It's something to check out and verify. Personal reviews: these are generally available on a number of websites now where various products are sold and can make for interesting reading.
It was appreciated. I've got a couple more items, one of which I should have mentioned before but forgot. Relative Humidity, RH meter: If you research the conditions that mold likes to grow in you'll find the literature says 50%RH and above seems to be a common denominator. Below 50%RH mold growth delines significantly; therefore it behoves one to monitor RH. I've got a digital temperature and humidity meter that I keep on the boat to see what's hapening. Check out Speedtech's EW-2 Forecast Mate for example. I have an older model of this: http://www.speedtech.com/asp/product.asp?recorprod=1&product=192&cat=46&ph=&keywords=&recor=&SearchFor=&PT_ID= Eratta: Just read a personal review of the Matag unit I have and the reviewer said that besides the Guarentee the other difference in the brands was the auto defrost. The reviewer said that the Fedders unit did NOT have the autodefrost capability. This is VERY important if you want to leave the dehumidifier running. It's something to check out and verify. Personal reviews: these are generally available on a number of websites now where various products are sold and can make for interesting reading.
Another Dehumidifier like Mighty Dry
I just sent in an order this morning for a eDehumidifier. It is the same as the Mighty Dry. These are built under several names. My old one shot craps at about 10 years old, it was a Dry Air. These are all built by Arrow Mfg in Illinois. The eDehumidifier costs $350 plus 24.95 shipping anywhere in the US. Mermaid Air makes a nice unit. It sells for $499. I was in their factory last week and the unit's construction looked better than the $350 unit, but for the extra $150, I went cheap. Bill P.S. Here in Florida we don't need Forced Air Heating to lower the humidity.
I just sent in an order this morning for a eDehumidifier. It is the same as the Mighty Dry. These are built under several names. My old one shot craps at about 10 years old, it was a Dry Air. These are all built by Arrow Mfg in Illinois. The eDehumidifier costs $350 plus 24.95 shipping anywhere in the US. Mermaid Air makes a nice unit. It sells for $499. I was in their factory last week and the unit's construction looked better than the $350 unit, but for the extra $150, I went cheap. Bill P.S. Here in Florida we don't need Forced Air Heating to lower the humidity.
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