I'm new to sailing (converted power boater) and wondered how far it's safe to heal over before tip over is an issue. I have a 1984 27' Hunter. Thanks
Healing over
- Thread starter Tom23400
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Good question
15 degrees heel is both optimum and maximum for comfort and efficiency. Anything over that is not helping for speed, so let out the main or jib to spill some wind. In the event you encounter a gust, you can try to fight your way through it for a minute or two at 20-25 degrees before the gust subsides. You can also turn slightly out of the wind to a beam reach, with the wind coming over your side at a 90-degree angle. This will flatten out the boat in mere seconds and make you look brilliant. Which is always good.
15 degrees heel is both optimum and maximum for comfort and efficiency. Anything over that is not helping for speed, so let out the main or jib to spill some wind. In the event you encounter a gust, you can try to fight your way through it for a minute or two at 20-25 degrees before the gust subsides. You can also turn slightly out of the wind to a beam reach, with the wind coming over your side at a 90-degree angle. This will flatten out the boat in mere seconds and make you look brilliant. Which is always good.
Depends on boat....but.....
Great timing on this question...... We survived a +60 degree heel this weekend. We were hit by a wind shear at the lake I sail out of and put us from an easy 10 degree to over 60 degrees (that is as high as my inclinometer goes) without "capsizing" us. Luckily, all we lost was my $400 camera :-( but no one was ejected or injured and the boat made it out ok. Conditions prior to the wind shear were a nice gentle breeze, moving along at a nice 5-10 degree heel at 3kts. Then wind died to nothing. About 300 yards out I noticed "average" ripples on the water (indicating a gust coming) but nothing behind it but nice ripples. I told my guest to be prepared for a pickup in speed, heel, etc. The gust hit us, which then increased our speed and heel. My guest was at the helm, and didn’t feel comfortable having control, so I took over and about five seconds later were hit with the shear that tip us easily over 60 degrees. My guest claimed that he was standing straight up looking into the water. I remember seeing the base of the starboard aft stantion in the water. After the shear, the lake was covered in whitecaps and went from a nice breeze to over 30-40mph winds on the water. After starting the outboard, I brought in the jib, dropped the main and brought the boat back into our slip. We were planning on pulling her out this past Saturday but because the winds were so strong, we decided to postponed it until later in the week. Hopefully insurance will cover the camera, but the important thing is that there were no injuries and no damage to the boat.
Great timing on this question...... We survived a +60 degree heel this weekend. We were hit by a wind shear at the lake I sail out of and put us from an easy 10 degree to over 60 degrees (that is as high as my inclinometer goes) without "capsizing" us. Luckily, all we lost was my $400 camera :-( but no one was ejected or injured and the boat made it out ok. Conditions prior to the wind shear were a nice gentle breeze, moving along at a nice 5-10 degree heel at 3kts. Then wind died to nothing. About 300 yards out I noticed "average" ripples on the water (indicating a gust coming) but nothing behind it but nice ripples. I told my guest to be prepared for a pickup in speed, heel, etc. The gust hit us, which then increased our speed and heel. My guest was at the helm, and didn’t feel comfortable having control, so I took over and about five seconds later were hit with the shear that tip us easily over 60 degrees. My guest claimed that he was standing straight up looking into the water. I remember seeing the base of the starboard aft stantion in the water. After the shear, the lake was covered in whitecaps and went from a nice breeze to over 30-40mph winds on the water. After starting the outboard, I brought in the jib, dropped the main and brought the boat back into our slip. We were planning on pulling her out this past Saturday but because the winds were so strong, we decided to postponed it until later in the week. Hopefully insurance will cover the camera, but the important thing is that there were no injuries and no damage to the boat.
Get an inclinometer
I am also a new sailor and adding an inclinometer has really helped me to become comfortable with heeling as well as find "the groove". For me the best spot I have found is at 15 degrees. My boat (H22) seems to heel very quickly from 0-15 degrees which can be unnerving to us newbies. But once it reaches 15 degrees you will find the boat doesn't want to heel much more because (as Deadline mentioned) that's where efficency drops off and the sails start to slip wind. It takes a good gust to go to 20 degrees but by then I have usually let sails out anyway. When you get uncomfortable you can glance at the inclinometer and see where you are at and if you need to let sails out.
I am also a new sailor and adding an inclinometer has really helped me to become comfortable with heeling as well as find "the groove". For me the best spot I have found is at 15 degrees. My boat (H22) seems to heel very quickly from 0-15 degrees which can be unnerving to us newbies. But once it reaches 15 degrees you will find the boat doesn't want to heel much more because (as Deadline mentioned) that's where efficency drops off and the sails start to slip wind. It takes a good gust to go to 20 degrees but by then I have usually let sails out anyway. When you get uncomfortable you can glance at the inclinometer and see where you are at and if you need to let sails out.
Heeling and Hunter
Hunters are very safe boats. They are designed with a heavy weather helm. Under normal conditions the wind will over power your rudder sending the bow into the wind preventing a capsize. Okay, so you are safe from a capsize. Is your gear secured? Is your crew hanging on? Having a gust force a heavy heel and the bow into the wind may not capsize the boat, but it does manage to toss everything loose leeward. Keep alert, active on the main sheet and rudder, and have fun putting the toe rail into the waves !
Hunters are very safe boats. They are designed with a heavy weather helm. Under normal conditions the wind will over power your rudder sending the bow into the wind preventing a capsize. Okay, so you are safe from a capsize. Is your gear secured? Is your crew hanging on? Having a gust force a heavy heel and the bow into the wind may not capsize the boat, but it does manage to toss everything loose leeward. Keep alert, active on the main sheet and rudder, and have fun putting the toe rail into the waves !
Always wondered myself
Nice question. I was told 15 was the best so that is where I try to keep it. Not uncomfortable at 30 with a steady wind. Gusts drive me nuts. Turn in, turn out, heel and ride it out? Nice to know I can get the toe rails wet and not be concerned (overly) as long as the rudder has enough bite.
Nice question. I was told 15 was the best so that is where I try to keep it. Not uncomfortable at 30 with a steady wind. Gusts drive me nuts. Turn in, turn out, heel and ride it out? Nice to know I can get the toe rails wet and not be concerned (overly) as long as the rudder has enough bite.
Healing
I sail a Hunter 23 and we have had the rub rail in the water without rounding up and with no fear of capsizing. My daughter has had the inclinometer at 45 degrees and we were just beginning to have fun. No very efficient sailing but fun nun the less. But 20 degrees should be no problem. Its hard to capsize since the boat tends to round up before this happens. Unless you get hit by a wave or some other accident happens. Brian
I sail a Hunter 23 and we have had the rub rail in the water without rounding up and with no fear of capsizing. My daughter has had the inclinometer at 45 degrees and we were just beginning to have fun. No very efficient sailing but fun nun the less. But 20 degrees should be no problem. Its hard to capsize since the boat tends to round up before this happens. Unless you get hit by a wave or some other accident happens. Brian
Built-In Inclinometer
We have a built-in excessive heel alarm... my wife screams at me! It amazes me no end that a woman who has spent virtually her whole life on sailboats & on the water -- even considering a career as a Coastie -- is such a chicken about heeling over. She's gets antsy from the onset of any heel & starts yelling at me after about 10 degrees. (We do have an inclinometer embedded below the bulkhead compass.) We love our 23.5, but at some point, we may need to consider a cat- or trimaran. With all due respect to Hunters -- for which I have a great & abiding love -- if it wasn't so expensive, I'd look to buy a Telstar 28 Trimaran from PCI... Those babies have almost no heel & FLY! But I'm not looking to drop $60k any time soon, thank you very much!
We have a built-in excessive heel alarm... my wife screams at me! It amazes me no end that a woman who has spent virtually her whole life on sailboats & on the water -- even considering a career as a Coastie -- is such a chicken about heeling over. She's gets antsy from the onset of any heel & starts yelling at me after about 10 degrees. (We do have an inclinometer embedded below the bulkhead compass.) We love our 23.5, but at some point, we may need to consider a cat- or trimaran. With all due respect to Hunters -- for which I have a great & abiding love -- if it wasn't so expensive, I'd look to buy a Telstar 28 Trimaran from PCI... Those babies have almost no heel & FLY! But I'm not looking to drop $60k any time soon, thank you very much!
The Cherubini 27's are hard to heel over too far
At least mine is. The boat rounds up in gusts. Even if I am just on full jib and no main, mine will round up. A couple of months ago my friend and I went out on a really windy day (25mph+ gusts) and deliberately tried to see how far we could heel the boat, well as hard as we tried, we couldn't get it past 35 degrees. No reefing, I even winched in the jib as much as I could (and it's a big jib). The boat would hit 35 degrees momentarily and then round up, even with full lock on the rudder. At 35 degrees the rails aren't even in the water. I'm sure it wasn't the best activity for the boat but it sure gave me a heck of a lot of confidence in the old girl. Enjoy the boat, it's a lot of fun and very stable. Manny
At least mine is. The boat rounds up in gusts. Even if I am just on full jib and no main, mine will round up. A couple of months ago my friend and I went out on a really windy day (25mph+ gusts) and deliberately tried to see how far we could heel the boat, well as hard as we tried, we couldn't get it past 35 degrees. No reefing, I even winched in the jib as much as I could (and it's a big jib). The boat would hit 35 degrees momentarily and then round up, even with full lock on the rudder. At 35 degrees the rails aren't even in the water. I'm sure it wasn't the best activity for the boat but it sure gave me a heck of a lot of confidence in the old girl. Enjoy the boat, it's a lot of fun and very stable. Manny
I have one (actually four) of those too....
Fitz, It is funny that we have the same inclinometer installed on our 23.5's. I must have the upgraded version though, cause I have four of them. The two youngest boys let me know at about 10 degrees, my oldest son is quite but goes rigid at about 20, and finally the ultimate alarm goes off at anything over 25 degrees.
I hate to be a fair weather sailor, but until they get used to it I will need to be. I am looking forward to the day when they are asking me to put the toe rail into the water. Steve E. s/v Pegasus svpegasus.blogspot.com
Fitz, It is funny that we have the same inclinometer installed on our 23.5's. I must have the upgraded version though, cause I have four of them. The two youngest boys let me know at about 10 degrees, my oldest son is quite but goes rigid at about 20, and finally the ultimate alarm goes off at anything over 25 degrees.
I hate to be a fair weather sailor, but until they get used to it I will need to be. I am looking forward to the day when they are asking me to put the toe rail into the water. Steve E. s/v Pegasus svpegasus.blogspot.comStrap them to the rails
And dunk them till they like it My kids found out real fast how much fun it was to hold on while I dunked the rail. Now they only like to go when its windy and want the excitement of a full face of water That doesn't work with the wife. She likes it slow and flat.
And dunk them till they like it
My kids found out real fast how much fun it was to hold on while I dunked the rail. Now they only like to go when its windy and want the excitement of a full face of water That doesn't work with the wife. She likes it slow and flat.
Let the Admiral drive
The two Hunters I am familier with the wb's 23.5 and 26, have a cockpit that is higher off the water, than similar sized boats, which exaggerates the perceived heel. The Admiral, who years ago, scared Sea Scouts by burying the rail, alerted me whenever the heel exceeded 15 deg. My solution was to let her drive, it is a different situation when you are in control.
The two Hunters I am familier with the wb's 23.5 and 26, have a cockpit that is higher off the water, than similar sized boats, which exaggerates the perceived heel. The Admiral, who years ago, scared Sea Scouts by burying the rail, alerted me whenever the heel exceeded 15 deg. My solution was to let her drive, it is a different situation when you are in control.
Angle of Vanishing Stability
Tom, US Sail offers multiple calculations including one to calculate how far your boat can theoritically heel before capsizing. As others have stated, 15 degrees is generally what many boats are designed for optimal sailing. When I started, the admiral was given control of the main sheet which allowed her to depower and right the boat. She found that more comfortable (in control) than being on the helm in higher winds.
Tom, US Sail offers multiple calculations including one to calculate how far your boat can theoritically heel before capsizing. As others have stated, 15 degrees is generally what many boats are designed for optimal sailing. When I started, the admiral was given control of the main sheet which allowed her to depower and right the boat. She found that more comfortable (in control) than being on the helm in higher winds.
Wind won't capsize a keel boat!
The worst the wind can do is knock your mast down to the surface of the water. This can happen when (for instance) a mighty gust from a thunderhead arrives unexpected well before the cloud itself. At this 90 degree heel, the keel is actually providing maximum righting force, although the hull shape is probably working against you. You and your stuff will certainly be shaken up, but the boat is nowhere near capsizing. To capsize, the hull has to rotate well beyond 90 degrees (to the angle of vanishing stability) where the hull and ballast are no longer working to right the boat. The best numbers I have seen for the older, Cherubini, h27 is around 135 degrees - that's 45 degrees beyond horizontal. In fact, tank tests performed on numerous hull shapes after the Fastnet disaster showed that a breaking wave taller than the beam of the boat that strikes the boat beam on will capsize the boat. In other words, a 10 foot breaking wave will roll over an h27 if you take it directly in the side. Because of the wind, time, and fetch it takes to form 10 foot breaking waves, you will probably have time to make it to a safe haven if you are cruising a coast. David Lady Lillie
The worst the wind can do is knock your mast down to the surface of the water. This can happen when (for instance) a mighty gust from a thunderhead arrives unexpected well before the cloud itself. At this 90 degree heel, the keel is actually providing maximum righting force, although the hull shape is probably working against you. You and your stuff will certainly be shaken up, but the boat is nowhere near capsizing. To capsize, the hull has to rotate well beyond 90 degrees (to the angle of vanishing stability) where the hull and ballast are no longer working to right the boat. The best numbers I have seen for the older, Cherubini, h27 is around 135 degrees - that's 45 degrees beyond horizontal. In fact, tank tests performed on numerous hull shapes after the Fastnet disaster showed that a breaking wave taller than the beam of the boat that strikes the boat beam on will capsize the boat. In other words, a 10 foot breaking wave will roll over an h27 if you take it directly in the side. Because of the wind, time, and fetch it takes to form 10 foot breaking waves, you will probably have time to make it to a safe haven if you are cruising a coast. David Lady Lillie
I have
no inclineometer on my 31, anyone care to share the angle of heel when the rail is just under, cuz I have no idea other than the fact that it is alot of fun... Dave
no inclineometer on my 31, anyone care to share the angle of heel when the rail is just under, cuz I have no idea other than the fact that it is alot of fun... Dave
Dave
If the rail is wet you're about 30 degrees. Glad you think it fun. I hate putting all my stuff back in place when it happen to me (the 30 degrees inventory count)
If the rail is wet you're about 30 degrees. Glad you think it fun. I hate putting all my stuff back in place when it happen to me (the 30 degrees inventory count)
The Joy of Healing
I regularly have my H240 healing at 30 degrees (according to the inclinometer). I have encountered a number of situations where the rudder overpowered and the boat made it's own turn into the wind. I have read some accounts of the rudder popping out of the water, but have not experienced this... My H240 has a pretty substantial sized rudder so they boat would really have to be on it's side, I think.
I regularly have my H240 healing at 30 degrees (according to the inclinometer). I have encountered a number of situations where the rudder overpowered and the boat made it's own turn into the wind. I have read some accounts of the rudder popping out of the water, but have not experienced this... My H240 has a pretty substantial sized rudder so they boat would really have to be on it's side, I think.
Sage advice
Not that I'm a sage... I'm just passing on advice I've heard from genuine sages, especially regarding the 22'-26' Hunter models of the last 20 years. Confucious say: "Grasshopper, wonder if reef wise, it already too late." My specific translation: If you are heeling past 15 degrees, you are overpowered & need to reef and/or douse either the jib or main. This is our first season with our 23.5. The first time we took her out, the wind was up pretty substantially & we didn't want to break her the first time we sailed her! We sailed under jib alone & had a great time. One of the last sails of the season, we had even stronger winds & sailed under reefed main only (until we headed back on a deep beam reach & I just had to run up the jib too.. yee-haw!). We learned how to heave-to this season & now have no hesitation to reef if I begin to wonder if it's time. Now, I have great affinity for heeling. As a kid, I'd love heeling over our Sunfish, right up to -- and past -- the point of capsizing. I'm older (but no wiser, alas) and have a more substantial boat & kids I need to keep on board. Heeling is still a great thrill, but as mentioned above, now it has serious drawbacks apropos of loose items tumbling around, not to mention decreased performance: the 23.5 just sails better with less heel. So leave the extreme heeling to Sunfish and Lazers! Reef, be safe & improve your boat's performance! (It's also quieter that way on my boat!) ------ Kevin s/v Grasshopper Hunter 23.5 Brownsville, VT
Not that I'm a sage... I'm just passing on advice I've heard from genuine sages, especially regarding the 22'-26' Hunter models of the last 20 years. Confucious say: "Grasshopper, wonder if reef wise, it already too late." My specific translation: If you are heeling past 15 degrees, you are overpowered & need to reef and/or douse either the jib or main. This is our first season with our 23.5. The first time we took her out, the wind was up pretty substantially & we didn't want to break her the first time we sailed her! We sailed under jib alone & had a great time. One of the last sails of the season, we had even stronger winds & sailed under reefed main only (until we headed back on a deep beam reach & I just had to run up the jib too.. yee-haw!). We learned how to heave-to this season & now have no hesitation to reef if I begin to wonder if it's time. Now, I have great affinity for heeling. As a kid, I'd love heeling over our Sunfish, right up to -- and past -- the point of capsizing. I'm older (but no wiser, alas) and have a more substantial boat & kids I need to keep on board. Heeling is still a great thrill, but as mentioned above, now it has serious drawbacks apropos of loose items tumbling around, not to mention decreased performance: the 23.5 just sails better with less heel. So leave the extreme heeling to Sunfish and Lazers! Reef, be safe & improve your boat's performance! (It's also quieter that way on my boat!) ------ Kevin s/v Grasshopper Hunter 23.5 Brownsville, VT
That's because...
... I'm *behind* the camera. Those are little Fitz's in the shot! Jack is in the companionway & Elizabeth is in the foretriangle. They can also be seen (kinda) in my avatar, dragging off the stern. They love doing that, though it kills boatspeed! And notice how level we are! Just a smidge of heel. Under jib alone, we were still moving along at around 4 kts, which was fine for a first sail. The telltails were streaming nicely.
... I'm *behind* the camera. Those are little Fitz's in the shot! Jack is in the companionway & Elizabeth is in the foretriangle. They can also be seen (kinda) in my avatar, dragging off the stern. They love doing that, though it kills boatspeed! And notice how level we are! Just a smidge of heel. Under jib alone, we were still moving along at around 4 kts, which was fine for a first sail. The telltails were streaming nicely.
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