I read another post from a couple of weeks ago where there was a discussion that sailing with your headsail only could load your mast in a way that it could break and or dismast you. Is this an urban myth? Does it hold true only for those rigs without backstays and? Is it intended for those who sail headsail only fopr months on end across vast open water? This weekend we enjoyed some higher wind by sailing without the mainsail. On my boat this seems to eliminate rudder helm and I also seem to be able to carry more sail this way without rounding up. My boat is a low I probably need a new main. That could be another post topic altogether. I couldn't get the topic off my mind this weekend while we enjoyed 25-30 mph gusts. Please tell me your thoughts.
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Headsail only
Harvey: I think it is more of a myth even though I have never heard of it. In all my sailing years I've seen a lot of different sail combinations and I always wonder with some of the wilder set ups if the sailor really had something in mind when he set his rig up the way he did. Also, the normal sequence is to raise the main and roll out the jib and when you reduce sail you do the opposite but I see guys roll out the jib and then raise the main. Sometimes I ask them why they do it that way and they tell me that is the way they learned. I think well that's OK I guess. One guy ask me what other way is there to do it. On production boats you would really have to go some to dismast by sailing with either the main or the jib so I would not worry about it. What kind of a boat do you have - fractional or masthead? I'll bet it is a masthead rig and the reason you did not have any weather helm was because you had eliminated the cause of weather helm - the mainsail. On the other hand, with jib only, the boats wants to fall off so your trading one for the other. I would be interested in knowing why you decided to sail with the jib only? Normally, the way I sail a masthead rig is when the wind starts to pipe up first I roll up the jib and then see how it goes. If I want more control I throw in a reef and if that doesn't work I throw in the second one. I prefer not to sail with the jib only. I know I'll hear from guys who do it all the time but personnaly I think it is backwards but to each his own and a mate has to do what he thinks is best at the time.
Harvey: I think it is more of a myth even though I have never heard of it. In all my sailing years I've seen a lot of different sail combinations and I always wonder with some of the wilder set ups if the sailor really had something in mind when he set his rig up the way he did. Also, the normal sequence is to raise the main and roll out the jib and when you reduce sail you do the opposite but I see guys roll out the jib and then raise the main. Sometimes I ask them why they do it that way and they tell me that is the way they learned. I think well that's OK I guess. One guy ask me what other way is there to do it. On production boats you would really have to go some to dismast by sailing with either the main or the jib so I would not worry about it. What kind of a boat do you have - fractional or masthead? I'll bet it is a masthead rig and the reason you did not have any weather helm was because you had eliminated the cause of weather helm - the mainsail. On the other hand, with jib only, the boats wants to fall off so your trading one for the other. I would be interested in knowing why you decided to sail with the jib only? Normally, the way I sail a masthead rig is when the wind starts to pipe up first I roll up the jib and then see how it goes. If I want more control I throw in a reef and if that doesn't work I throw in the second one. I prefer not to sail with the jib only. I know I'll hear from guys who do it all the time but personnaly I think it is backwards but to each his own and a mate has to do what he thinks is best at the time.
urban myth
sailing under jib alone will not break your mast. Some boats sail better in heavy weather under jib alone, others under mainsail. Mine happens to do well under jib alone when its blowing 30 knts, and I am perfectly comfortable with it. You obviously need to trim your sail to suit the conditions, but that applies in any case. You should experiment a bit to see which configuration works for you, but assuming you have proper rigging I wouldn't worry one bit. Happy sailing!
sailing under jib alone will not break your mast. Some boats sail better in heavy weather under jib alone, others under mainsail. Mine happens to do well under jib alone when its blowing 30 knts, and I am perfectly comfortable with it. You obviously need to trim your sail to suit the conditions, but that applies in any case. You should experiment a bit to see which configuration works for you, but assuming you have proper rigging I wouldn't worry one bit. Happy sailing!
Weather helm
Harvey, Sailing with the jib only should not dammage your rig. The rig is designed to support the full force of the wind with both sails up. Using only one of them should not be too problematic. Going downwind with head sail only is not a problem either as it is often recommended in sailing litterature only to fly a jib while going downwind to prevent accidental jibe. Some offshore sailors will even fly two head sails, with poles, no main, instead of using a Spinnaker. In this situation the boat is pulled as the front wheel drive will pull a front wheel drive car. A sailboat will have a tendency to turn into or away from the wind depending up on the sail configuration and balance of the boat. The force of the wind produces a "center of effort" and the resistance to this force by the sailboat and keel produces a "center of lateral resistance". If the "center of effort" is aft (behind) the "center of lateral resistance" the boat will have the tendency to turn into the wind. Most boats are designed this way. This is what happen when you keep your mainsail up and the wind is increasing. It is one indication that it is time to spill air from the main or take a reef. Reefing in the main more than the jib will reduce weather helm and make the boat easier to sail. However, some weather helm is desirable. If the "center of effort" is forward to the "center of lateral resistance" like when using a jib only configuration, this will cause the boat to turn away from the wind. This is why you had an easier time maintaining you course with the jib only. Hope this will be helpfull
Harvey, Sailing with the jib only should not dammage your rig. The rig is designed to support the full force of the wind with both sails up. Using only one of them should not be too problematic. Going downwind with head sail only is not a problem either as it is often recommended in sailing litterature only to fly a jib while going downwind to prevent accidental jibe. Some offshore sailors will even fly two head sails, with poles, no main, instead of using a Spinnaker. In this situation the boat is pulled as the front wheel drive will pull a front wheel drive car. A sailboat will have a tendency to turn into or away from the wind depending up on the sail configuration and balance of the boat. The force of the wind produces a "center of effort" and the resistance to this force by the sailboat and keel produces a "center of lateral resistance". If the "center of effort" is aft (behind) the "center of lateral resistance" the boat will have the tendency to turn into the wind. Most boats are designed this way. This is what happen when you keep your mainsail up and the wind is increasing. It is one indication that it is time to spill air from the main or take a reef. Reefing in the main more than the jib will reduce weather helm and make the boat easier to sail. However, some weather helm is desirable. If the "center of effort" is forward to the "center of lateral resistance" like when using a jib only configuration, this will cause the boat to turn away from the wind. This is why you had an easier time maintaining you course with the jib only. Hope this will be helpfull
Genny and Spinnaker
Harvey, many boat sail a genny and a spinnaker with the main laying on the spreader. Don, (because I single hand) I find this easier to go with the jib first. With the high aspect of the main, the genny on the 25 O'Day is the power source. I unfurl my genny and engage my tiller tamer and establish a tack (mostly because the boat is more stable with the genny than the main. Then I go forward to raise my main. I release the main sheet before I go forward so that the boat does not change coarse, raise the main and then back in the cockpit trim the main then tweek the centerboard for balance. r.w.landau
Harvey, many boat sail a genny and a spinnaker with the main laying on the spreader. Don, (because I single hand) I find this easier to go with the jib first. With the high aspect of the main, the genny on the 25 O'Day is the power source. I unfurl my genny and engage my tiller tamer and establish a tack (mostly because the boat is more stable with the genny than the main. Then I go forward to raise my main. I release the main sheet before I go forward so that the boat does not change coarse, raise the main and then back in the cockpit trim the main then tweek the centerboard for balance. r.w.landau
Physics
or just plain common sense
I too have heard that rumor a lot but gotta tell you it just didn't make any sense to me. The only way that statement would make sense is if the main provided some kind of pull in the oposite direction the jib would put on the mast and that's not going to happen. If you think about it, the main and jib pull on the mast in the same direction, so fly with jib alone is actully less strain on the mast. Now...as for which sail to sail with...I have a fractional rig and find that if the true wind is above 20 knots and I'm heading into the wind, I like using just the jib because the leeward pull of the jib counters the weather helm created by the heeling so you end up with a fairly balanced helm.
or just plain common sense
I too have heard that rumor a lot but gotta tell you it just didn't make any sense to me. The only way that statement would make sense is if the main provided some kind of pull in the oposite direction the jib would put on the mast and that's not going to happen. If you think about it, the main and jib pull on the mast in the same direction, so fly with jib alone is actully less strain on the mast. Now...as for which sail to sail with...I have a fractional rig and find that if the true wind is above 20 knots and I'm heading into the wind, I like using just the jib because the leeward pull of the jib counters the weather helm created by the heeling so you end up with a fairly balanced helm.Another outcome
I know of two sailing friends who lost their masts while flying the genoa only. In both cases the wind was blowing over 20 knots true with higher gusts and they were beating into a steep chop. The reason you want to fly your main with the genoa is because the main adds support to the mast. It prevents the mast from pumping in high wind and wave conditions. Pumping is when the center of the mast starts moving in a fore and aft direction in a steady pattern. Once the mast starts pumping you increase the chances of the mast inverting, which means the center section of the mast is bending toward the stern of the boat. In both these instances my friends noticed the mast begin to pump and within a minute the mast broke at the spreaders. It's not a myth.
I know of two sailing friends who lost their masts while flying the genoa only. In both cases the wind was blowing over 20 knots true with higher gusts and they were beating into a steep chop. The reason you want to fly your main with the genoa is because the main adds support to the mast. It prevents the mast from pumping in high wind and wave conditions. Pumping is when the center of the mast starts moving in a fore and aft direction in a steady pattern. Once the mast starts pumping you increase the chances of the mast inverting, which means the center section of the mast is bending toward the stern of the boat. In both these instances my friends noticed the mast begin to pump and within a minute the mast broke at the spreaders. It's not a myth.
sloppy rigging
appears to have been the most likely cause of your friends' mast-disaster (can't be 100% sure of course, I wasn't there!). Pumping occurs in a seaway when there is insufficient tension on the backstay and/or lower aft shrouds.If you loose your mast in as little as 20knts under jib alone then it is most likely that under full canvas one of the lower windward shrouds would have snapped at some time for just that reason -and sooner rather than later! You can't say it is unsafe to drive when it rains just because someone with bald tyres skidded! Rigging should be checked annually, especially if you sail a lot in heavy(sort of) wheather or in a large swell: that all puts pressure on the rigging, which will gradually loose tension. With proper rigging there is absolutely no problem sailing on a jib alone. In my area we often have strong afternoon breezes around 25/30knts and many skippers then just 'canvas down' to the jib, which makes life easy and safe, particularly when you are shorthanded and on a downwind stretch.
appears to have been the most likely cause of your friends' mast-disaster (can't be 100% sure of course, I wasn't there!). Pumping occurs in a seaway when there is insufficient tension on the backstay and/or lower aft shrouds.If you loose your mast in as little as 20knts under jib alone then it is most likely that under full canvas one of the lower windward shrouds would have snapped at some time for just that reason -and sooner rather than later! You can't say it is unsafe to drive when it rains just because someone with bald tyres skidded! Rigging should be checked annually, especially if you sail a lot in heavy(sort of) wheather or in a large swell: that all puts pressure on the rigging, which will gradually loose tension. With proper rigging there is absolutely no problem sailing on a jib alone. In my area we often have strong afternoon breezes around 25/30knts and many skippers then just 'canvas down' to the jib, which makes life easy and safe, particularly when you are shorthanded and on a downwind stretch.
Ted, Just for the record,
The two masts that were lost, how old was the standing rigging and was it used 12 months/ year and what was the normal wind conditions for the area the boats were sailed? I sail on a lake ( 6 month season) that I hear few accounts of demastings and the probable age of rigging is 30+ years.Average wind is 5-10. r.w.landau
The two masts that were lost, how old was the standing rigging and was it used 12 months/ year and what was the normal wind conditions for the area the boats were sailed? I sail on a lake ( 6 month season) that I hear few accounts of demastings and the probable age of rigging is 30+ years.Average wind is 5-10. r.w.landau
Just for the record
r.w. These boats are sailed from May through October. The age of the standing is unknown but seeing how these guys maintain their boats, I doubt that there were obvious problems that were neglected. One boat was about 10 years old and the other about 15. I have to assume they had the original standing rigging. Both boats had single spreaders. One boat had double lowers and the other boat had single lowers. Both were masthead rigged. Average wind speed for this area is 10-15 knots true and 15-20 is pretty common with steep chop. In 5-10 knots true I would have to say you are plenty safe to sail with only a headsail.
r.w. These boats are sailed from May through October. The age of the standing is unknown but seeing how these guys maintain their boats, I doubt that there were obvious problems that were neglected. One boat was about 10 years old and the other about 15. I have to assume they had the original standing rigging. Both boats had single spreaders. One boat had double lowers and the other boat had single lowers. Both were masthead rigged. Average wind speed for this area is 10-15 knots true and 15-20 is pretty common with steep chop. In 5-10 knots true I would have to say you are plenty safe to sail with only a headsail.
some more thoughts
Ted, the conditions you describe are relatively tough on the rigging. Not that it would need replacement because of these conditions, but I am almost certain that under those conditions the tension will be considerably out of whack within a few years, with probably not enough tension on the backstay (especially if using roller furling jib)and uneven tension on the shrouds. The differences can be amazing (depending of course under which circumstances you sail). Also bear in mind that many production boats are somewhat 'under-rigged', the specifications are based on relatively smooth waters and 15knts. Shrouds will not break under heavier load (within reason), but will stretch more, and that gets progressively worse. Consumate racers often re-adjust rig-tension before every race, for cruisers an annual (or bi-annual) tune up may save your mast, give you peace of mind and even allow you to sail under jib alone in 25knts true...
Ted, the conditions you describe are relatively tough on the rigging. Not that it would need replacement because of these conditions, but I am almost certain that under those conditions the tension will be considerably out of whack within a few years, with probably not enough tension on the backstay (especially if using roller furling jib)and uneven tension on the shrouds. The differences can be amazing (depending of course under which circumstances you sail). Also bear in mind that many production boats are somewhat 'under-rigged', the specifications are based on relatively smooth waters and 15knts. Shrouds will not break under heavier load (within reason), but will stretch more, and that gets progressively worse. Consumate racers often re-adjust rig-tension before every race, for cruisers an annual (or bi-annual) tune up may save your mast, give you peace of mind and even allow you to sail under jib alone in 25knts true...
Under rigged
Edward (Sydney, Australia - my favorite country next to the USA) brings up a good point. To expand with my own thoughts on the subject - new boats are no different than new cars - manufactures, in my opinion, put the cheapest crap on them to get them out the door and so do boat builders. Shocks and tires last the minimum amount of time and the same with the sail boat rigging. Salt water conditions are a killer for rigging and on a new boat your lucky to get 6 to 8 years out of it. When the rigging is replaced by a reputable rigger the odds go up to about 10 to 12 years. I pushed my rigging to 11 years but when I saw some cracks appear I knew I was a fugitive from the law of averages and that was on the parts I could see. When I had the rigger check the rigging, what he found at the top scared me to death - it was a mess. Bottom line - spend a few bucks at the start of the season for a rigging checkup. If you see the slightest crack ANYWHERE have an expert check out the entire system. Suppose you did have a rigging failure - do you know what to do? Assume your sailing closehauled on port tack and the starboard rigging breaks - what would be the first thing you do (after you use a stick and a spoon to clean out your pants?). Suppose your running downwind and the backstay breaks - what would be the first thing you do?
Edward (Sydney, Australia - my favorite country next to the USA) brings up a good point. To expand with my own thoughts on the subject - new boats are no different than new cars - manufactures, in my opinion, put the cheapest crap on them to get them out the door and so do boat builders. Shocks and tires last the minimum amount of time and the same with the sail boat rigging. Salt water conditions are a killer for rigging and on a new boat your lucky to get 6 to 8 years out of it. When the rigging is replaced by a reputable rigger the odds go up to about 10 to 12 years. I pushed my rigging to 11 years but when I saw some cracks appear I knew I was a fugitive from the law of averages and that was on the parts I could see. When I had the rigger check the rigging, what he found at the top scared me to death - it was a mess. Bottom line - spend a few bucks at the start of the season for a rigging checkup. If you see the slightest crack ANYWHERE have an expert check out the entire system. Suppose you did have a rigging failure - do you know what to do? Assume your sailing closehauled on port tack and the starboard rigging breaks - what would be the first thing you do (after you use a stick and a spoon to clean out your pants?). Suppose your running downwind and the backstay breaks - what would be the first thing you do?
What I'd do...
If I'm sailing closehauled on port tack and the starboard rigging (shrouds?) breaks, the first thing I'd do is say a prayer of thanks, since there isn't any load on it. Then I would steer down a little broader, set up some sort of self-steering to keep the boat on port tack, lead a line from the masthead to a strongly anchored point on the starboard rail or deck in order to support the mast on that side, and start getting the foresail down.
If I'm sailing closehauled on port tack and the starboard rigging (shrouds?) breaks, the first thing I'd do is say a prayer of thanks, since there isn't any load on it. Then I would steer down a little broader, set up some sort of self-steering to keep the boat on port tack, lead a line from the masthead to a strongly anchored point on the starboard rail or deck in order to support the mast on that side, and start getting the foresail down.
The ONLY reasonable possibility ....
is that with a genoa only the mast will not be windloaded through the mainsail and that may change the 'natural frequency of oscilations' of the mast so that it may develop a 'harmonic' pumping - which may soon fatigue the rigging. Otherwise, the same (or less) loads will be imparted to the rigging terminals and that would cause less vulnerability to failure. Therefore for the general case: its an urban legend that bears NO credibility from an engineering/structural sense. If a mast without a mainsail would be more vulnerable ... would it not then follow that a mast without ANY sails flying would be the worst case .... and we know that that is a 'beyond trivial and WRONG' assumption. Such mast oscilations (pumping) are usually easily removed - changing the rig tension, inducing the mast to bend/bow, adding or subtracting weight/mass, etc.
is that with a genoa only the mast will not be windloaded through the mainsail and that may change the 'natural frequency of oscilations' of the mast so that it may develop a 'harmonic' pumping - which may soon fatigue the rigging. Otherwise, the same (or less) loads will be imparted to the rigging terminals and that would cause less vulnerability to failure. Therefore for the general case: its an urban legend that bears NO credibility from an engineering/structural sense. If a mast without a mainsail would be more vulnerable ... would it not then follow that a mast without ANY sails flying would be the worst case .... and we know that that is a 'beyond trivial and WRONG' assumption. Such mast oscilations (pumping) are usually easily removed - changing the rig tension, inducing the mast to bend/bow, adding or subtracting weight/mass, etc.
Why I opted for Jib only
Don, I opted for jib only because my original destination was 11 miles downwind. Since the forecast was calling for similar winds on Sunday, I decided it would be prudent to beat windward on Saturday and "pay the Piper" that way I could deliver my weekend crew to their families sunday afternoon rather than Sunday evening. I simply left the rig as set up rather than going forward in the considerable wave action. However, My main has considerable boomlength (Ericson 35 II)the rig is set up to maximize the old CCA rules. This seems to cause more weather helm. ( I need a new main )
Don, I opted for jib only because my original destination was 11 miles downwind. Since the forecast was calling for similar winds on Sunday, I decided it would be prudent to beat windward on Saturday and "pay the Piper" that way I could deliver my weekend crew to their families sunday afternoon rather than Sunday evening. I simply left the rig as set up rather than going forward in the considerable wave action. However, My main has considerable boomlength (Ericson 35 II)the rig is set up to maximize the old CCA rules. This seems to cause more weather helm. ( I need a new main )
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