I recently purchased a '79, Hunter 33. It still has the (I think) original head. A self-contained (no water intake) unit with overboard and pump out connections. I would like to have a more modern system with more capacity. What suggestions might you have for upgrading this unit. Where can I place a holding tank? How big? Ridgid or inflateable? Have you any experienc with the "new" "Airhead"?
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You have several options...
It just depends on how much you want to spend. I'm familiar with the Airhead, but I can't see any real advantage to it--for one thing, liquids are drained off into a tank that has to be carried off the boat and emptied...no different from a portapotty. And and a couple of things about it bother me. One--the claim that "solids are rendered odorless in a few days"...and meanwhile? Two--urine can stink just as bad as solids...no mention of odor control there. And three--according to their website, the contents of the airhead tank can be moved to a larger tank...but how, with no water? Bottom line...it's something different, but not something I'd recommend unless/until enough units have been in the field long enough to know how well it works in "real time"...right now it's mostly controlled use. As for what I would recommend for your boat. What will your budget stand? What kind of power resources will you have that might support a treatment device (e.g. the Lectra/San) vs. holding tank? Do you want push button "landlubber proof" convenience, or are you committed to manual only? IMO, Raritan toilets are the best quality for the most reasonable price, and they offer a wide range--from the most basic compact manual to the top-of-the-line household size all porcelain "throne" with several manual and electric models in between. They also make the Lectra/San. So let's start with a little reading. Raritan's website is at http;//www.raritaneng.com And then there are the articles in our own Head Mistress forum Reference Library (on the forum home page)....they'll answer a lot of your questions about installation, where to look for space for a tank, and how to operate and maintain whatever you install. Then get back to me with specific questions...I'll be glad to help you sort it all out so that you end up with a system you'll be happy with.
It just depends on how much you want to spend. I'm familiar with the Airhead, but I can't see any real advantage to it--for one thing, liquids are drained off into a tank that has to be carried off the boat and emptied...no different from a portapotty. And and a couple of things about it bother me. One--the claim that "solids are rendered odorless in a few days"...and meanwhile? Two--urine can stink just as bad as solids...no mention of odor control there. And three--according to their website, the contents of the airhead tank can be moved to a larger tank...but how, with no water? Bottom line...it's something different, but not something I'd recommend unless/until enough units have been in the field long enough to know how well it works in "real time"...right now it's mostly controlled use. As for what I would recommend for your boat. What will your budget stand? What kind of power resources will you have that might support a treatment device (e.g. the Lectra/San) vs. holding tank? Do you want push button "landlubber proof" convenience, or are you committed to manual only? IMO, Raritan toilets are the best quality for the most reasonable price, and they offer a wide range--from the most basic compact manual to the top-of-the-line household size all porcelain "throne" with several manual and electric models in between. They also make the Lectra/San. So let's start with a little reading. Raritan's website is at http;//www.raritaneng.com And then there are the articles in our own Head Mistress forum Reference Library (on the forum home page)....they'll answer a lot of your questions about installation, where to look for space for a tank, and how to operate and maintain whatever you install. Then get back to me with specific questions...I'll be glad to help you sort it all out so that you end up with a system you'll be happy with.
did it
Four years ago I replaced the system you mentioned, which was, indeed, the original. I installed the cheapest Jabsco, ran a hose to a three way Y-valve, with one outlet going directly to the holding tank, and the other going to the manual discharge pump and its two outlets, one overboard and one thru-deck. The holding tank options were under the sink counter or behind the head bulkhead, immediately below the pump, and above the water pump compartment. These references are all to the original positions of the equipment, by the way. I also did something that I have never seen recommended, but that works really well. Peggy might even be interested in this! I used a Y-valve that can work any of the three directions, not just the usual two. I then used only the entrance to the holding tank that goes to the bottom, In other words, the inlet and the outlet to the holding tank are the same. The purpose of this is to allow the discharge pump to be able to pump directly from the head, as well as from the holding tank. This means that if I get a clog in the tank, I can simply give the discharge pump a few strokes, and everything gets pulled through the head pump! NO CLOGS, AND NO LIMITS ON TOILET PAPER. By having a pump that "pulls" as well as "pushes", it is amazing what can be cleared. Additionally, if the head pump fails offshore, the discharge pump can be used. It sure takes most of the worries out of the head. But don't put an antisiphon valve in any of the "suction" sides. Good loops, a few extra strokes of the pump to put air in the hoses, and you are in good shape. By the way, that head you are about to throw out may be better than you think. It holds quite a bit and you can sail with all your thru-hulls closed. Great for haul-outs, too!!
Four years ago I replaced the system you mentioned, which was, indeed, the original. I installed the cheapest Jabsco, ran a hose to a three way Y-valve, with one outlet going directly to the holding tank, and the other going to the manual discharge pump and its two outlets, one overboard and one thru-deck. The holding tank options were under the sink counter or behind the head bulkhead, immediately below the pump, and above the water pump compartment. These references are all to the original positions of the equipment, by the way. I also did something that I have never seen recommended, but that works really well. Peggy might even be interested in this! I used a Y-valve that can work any of the three directions, not just the usual two. I then used only the entrance to the holding tank that goes to the bottom, In other words, the inlet and the outlet to the holding tank are the same. The purpose of this is to allow the discharge pump to be able to pump directly from the head, as well as from the holding tank. This means that if I get a clog in the tank, I can simply give the discharge pump a few strokes, and everything gets pulled through the head pump! NO CLOGS, AND NO LIMITS ON TOILET PAPER. By having a pump that "pulls" as well as "pushes", it is amazing what can be cleared. Additionally, if the head pump fails offshore, the discharge pump can be used. It sure takes most of the worries out of the head. But don't put an antisiphon valve in any of the "suction" sides. Good loops, a few extra strokes of the pump to put air in the hoses, and you are in good shape. By the way, that head you are about to throw out may be better than you think. It holds quite a bit and you can sail with all your thru-hulls closed. Great for haul-outs, too!!
Question:
Why do you have the hose to the deck pumpout fitting going through the pump? With a pump in that line, it should almost impossible for a pumpout to suck out the tank. I can't recommend your installation, btw...you may get away with it, but it has too much disaster potential...nor does it meet any CG or ABYC standards.
Why do you have the hose to the deck pumpout fitting going through the pump? With a pump in that line, it should almost impossible for a pumpout to suck out the tank. I can't recommend your installation, btw...you may get away with it, but it has too much disaster potential...nor does it meet any CG or ABYC standards.
With all due respect, Peggy, it works!
What can I say? The diaphragm discharge pump has been in-line for nineteen years, and I have never had trouble using a pumpout station. The check valves all go in the right direction, and the diaphram and the handle on the overboard pump simply move out as if you are pumping...and, voila, everything just passes through. I had to install it this way in 1982 when I moved into a marina that had every liveaboard slip plumbed into city sewage, but you had to have a pump to pump your sewage out. The hose screwed into the deck discharge, in place of the cap. It worked beautifully, and no one ever dreamed of pumping out into the marina. I suppose the marina had a system of check-valves so that no one (or the city!) pumped back into anyone's head. Anyway, I lived there for six years. Regarding my pump set up, it is NOT a recipe for disaster. Think about it, or diagram the hoses. If you have high loops, and if you pump the head dry and actually pump air, any siphon will be broken. And, if you feel uneasy with that, then after pumping your business into the holding tank, you simply shift the Y-valve into the overboard discharge position, effectively isolating the holding tank. You can have an anti-siphon in the overboard discharge hose,in-line after the pump. However, I prefer installing a T, since the way to REALLY have a disaster (as in sinking the boat) is to have one of those anti-siphon valves (approved by the ABYC though they may be) sealed by salt crystals. They then are useless. IMHO, it is much safer to run a loop way up above the waterline (at any angle of heel) and install a T. Run a hose from the T higher still, to a vent, or maybe the cockpit. Nigel Calder recommends this, and it is done alot among blue-water folk, who really do prefer bullet-proof systems. The fact that the ABYC does not recommend my installation may be because they haven't tried it. They don't overule physics and mechanical principles! And, believe me, I have cleared quite a few clogs with this system. Not to mention that when the head needs servicing (I service mine, rather than simply replace), it is easy to fill the bowl with fresh water and then pump it out with the diaphragm pump. It is then much less messy to open up, as I am sure you will appreciate. I really can't imagine what problems the USCG would have with a system that has a holding tank, a through-hull discharge for offshore work, and a deck discharge for pump-out stations, all of which function.........
What can I say? The diaphragm discharge pump has been in-line for nineteen years, and I have never had trouble using a pumpout station. The check valves all go in the right direction, and the diaphram and the handle on the overboard pump simply move out as if you are pumping...and, voila, everything just passes through. I had to install it this way in 1982 when I moved into a marina that had every liveaboard slip plumbed into city sewage, but you had to have a pump to pump your sewage out. The hose screwed into the deck discharge, in place of the cap. It worked beautifully, and no one ever dreamed of pumping out into the marina. I suppose the marina had a system of check-valves so that no one (or the city!) pumped back into anyone's head. Anyway, I lived there for six years. Regarding my pump set up, it is NOT a recipe for disaster. Think about it, or diagram the hoses. If you have high loops, and if you pump the head dry and actually pump air, any siphon will be broken. And, if you feel uneasy with that, then after pumping your business into the holding tank, you simply shift the Y-valve into the overboard discharge position, effectively isolating the holding tank. You can have an anti-siphon in the overboard discharge hose,in-line after the pump. However, I prefer installing a T, since the way to REALLY have a disaster (as in sinking the boat) is to have one of those anti-siphon valves (approved by the ABYC though they may be) sealed by salt crystals. They then are useless. IMHO, it is much safer to run a loop way up above the waterline (at any angle of heel) and install a T. Run a hose from the T higher still, to a vent, or maybe the cockpit. Nigel Calder recommends this, and it is done alot among blue-water folk, who really do prefer bullet-proof systems. The fact that the ABYC does not recommend my installation may be because they haven't tried it. They don't overule physics and mechanical principles! And, believe me, I have cleared quite a few clogs with this system. Not to mention that when the head needs servicing (I service mine, rather than simply replace), it is easy to fill the bowl with fresh water and then pump it out with the diaphragm pump. It is then much less messy to open up, as I am sure you will appreciate. I really can't imagine what problems the USCG would have with a system that has a holding tank, a through-hull discharge for offshore work, and a deck discharge for pump-out stations, all of which function.........
I didn't say your pump set-up is...
a recipe for disaster, but I cannot recommend it. I'm sure there are many "Rube Golberg" contraptions that work for the owners who installed them, but that does not make them safe in the hands of anyone else, especially not in the hands of the "weekend warriors" who are 99% of today's boat owners. As for your contempt for ABYC standards, don't knock 'em unless you understand their purpose. Blue water sailors are highly creative when it comes to reinventing a fairly simple wheel because they're always looking for a way to make things "bullet proof," that is "requires no maintenance"...but their definition of cruising is "sailing your boat to exotic places to work on it," which seems to contradict the idea that anything requires no maintenance...and various sanitation system components seem to have a high failure rate among them. You're happy with your system...fine, it's your boat...you obviously designed it, you know how it's supposed to work, and you know what to do when it doesn't. But I've had too much experience with boat owners' grasp of physics, their mechanical abilities, and their typical approach to maintenance to recommend it to anyone else.
a recipe for disaster, but I cannot recommend it. I'm sure there are many "Rube Golberg" contraptions that work for the owners who installed them, but that does not make them safe in the hands of anyone else, especially not in the hands of the "weekend warriors" who are 99% of today's boat owners. As for your contempt for ABYC standards, don't knock 'em unless you understand their purpose. Blue water sailors are highly creative when it comes to reinventing a fairly simple wheel because they're always looking for a way to make things "bullet proof," that is "requires no maintenance"...but their definition of cruising is "sailing your boat to exotic places to work on it," which seems to contradict the idea that anything requires no maintenance...and various sanitation system components seem to have a high failure rate among them. You're happy with your system...fine, it's your boat...you obviously designed it, you know how it's supposed to work, and you know what to do when it doesn't. But I've had too much experience with boat owners' grasp of physics, their mechanical abilities, and their typical approach to maintenance to recommend it to anyone else.
Peace, Peggy
I do NOT have contempt for the ABYC standards.....but I do understand that there is quite a bit of disagreement on some of them. The issue of bonding all the metal in a boat is a case in point. ABYC recommends it, but may experts and builders do not. And boats have done well, and poorly, both bonded and un-bonded.The same is true of many generalizations, in many aspects of life. By the way, there are quite a few cruisers who practice preventative maintenance, with the hope that they will also get to enjoy those exotic places. It does take some discipline, but it can be done! Fair winds.
I do NOT have contempt for the ABYC standards.....but I do understand that there is quite a bit of disagreement on some of them. The issue of bonding all the metal in a boat is a case in point. ABYC recommends it, but may experts and builders do not. And boats have done well, and poorly, both bonded and un-bonded.The same is true of many generalizations, in many aspects of life. By the way, there are quite a few cruisers who practice preventative maintenance, with the hope that they will also get to enjoy those exotic places. It does take some discipline, but it can be done! Fair winds.
Back to Rich's question.
I installed the Cricket model from Raritan this past winter(link below). I like most of the design features, especially the no nonsense diapragm pump. It really clears the toilet and hoses with very little water. But be careful with your measurements. You can get the base dimensions off of the Raritan web-site. However there are only three mounting bolts, two in front and one centered in back. You need clearance for the outlet pipe but at least it's angle of attack is adjustable. You need clearance for the inlet water hose which sticks straight out the back. And, finally, the pump handle angles away from the toilet to the degree that it actually touches the bulkhead on my boat. Ideally you could take one on your boat and return it if the fit is not what you expected. Good luck, especially with the plumbing.
I installed the Cricket model from Raritan this past winter(link below). I like most of the design features, especially the no nonsense diapragm pump. It really clears the toilet and hoses with very little water. But be careful with your measurements. You can get the base dimensions off of the Raritan web-site. However there are only three mounting bolts, two in front and one centered in back. You need clearance for the outlet pipe but at least it's angle of attack is adjustable. You need clearance for the inlet water hose which sticks straight out the back. And, finally, the pump handle angles away from the toilet to the degree that it actually touches the bulkhead on my boat. Ideally you could take one on your boat and return it if the fit is not what you expected. Good luck, especially with the plumbing.
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