Head sail sizes ...

[Scott T-Bird]

I started to tack this one to the sail-flutter thread and thought I would start a new one ...

I've finally gotten fed-up with hanking our 150 genny and decided to add furling. I'll have my genny modified and I figured I may as well have it cut down to 135 or thereabouts.

I also figured on purchasing a new sail. I thought a 110 would be suitable. This way, I figure that with reefing, I have a nice range essentially covered.

Has that been the experience of others?

Alan, I have wondered if you have a furler or do you hank the sails? If you have a furler, do you use it for reefing or always make sail changes?

A bit of background: Ours is masthead rigged, and I bought the 150 when I had little experience and thought that 'mo is always bettah'. Since then I've found that I asked for a clew that is too low because I can't see under the foot and the lifelines make sail trim adjustments a miserable experience. Like Don, I want a smaller genny with a clew that is cut just above the lifelines.

We use our 150 at least 80% of the time because our old 110 is an old bag and I don't like the clew which is way up high. I would actually like to buy a smaller sail that I would use a little more often than the 150 which I tend to use even when over-canvassed. I've never liked the feeling of being under-powered

So maybe the smaller sail should actually be slightly larger ...

 

[Todd Smith]

What are your winds like ? I live in an area with a lot of light winds and would get the biggest that can fit. Maybe you can just get the 150 cut to have a higher clew.

 

[Alan]

Scott, I have a below deck furler (ProFurl). The advantage is the drum is out of sight and the tack of the sail is right at deck level. All my sails are deck sweepers except my ultra light reacher. I use the extrusion as a foil but do not use the upper swivel to hoist the sail. I never roll these sails on the furler, just drop and flake. Usually we flake on the drop which makes is faster and easier. Changing headsails is very easy to do. With some practice you can get it done in a couple on minutes. I use "J" locks for the sheets which fit through the fairleads if I need to change cars to the #3 tracks. Most days sailing I'll use the same headsail throughout the day without a need to change.

 

[Joe]

I think you're on the right track.... with a good quality furler and a properly cut sail you can reduce the 135 down 25% or so without too much negative effect on trim. The 110 will be ideal on windier days when you may want to reef dow to 90% or so...

I changed my sailplan a number of years back on the advice of my sailmaker. We added a full roach main and a 110 (hank on) blade. The theory was that I'd be able to single hand the smaller headsail and with the larger main making up some of the lost power. I still use the #1 genoa, but usually only with crew.... it's a big decksweeping racing sail... restricted visibility and sailhandling demands make it somewhat inconvenient for a singlehander. The 110, on the otherhand, is a breeze to handle and the higher clew offers excellent visibilty from anywhere in the cockpit.

I had to add a rigid vang because the larger roach's battens would hang up on the topping lift... turned out to be a terrific upgrade... The topping lift is flat out annoying, the rigid vang is way, way more sensible.

Finally, I added the Garhaurer EZ glide jib lead system the next year..... Now I'm stylin'.

 

[RichH]

With a furler/REEFER (top swivel as well as bottom swivel, etc.), a sail whose luff shape is cut especially for a furler-REEFING, a 30+% reef reduction is possible without having 'bad' shape at the fully reefed (to that ~30% maximum reduction). A 135% X .7 = 94%.
I'd suggest the 'special luff shape' instead of applying a 'foam luff' as the foam can make for a 'very thick bunch' of rolled up sail material. Id also suggest a radial or VFR cut with the leech and mid cord panels of 'standard' weight fabric, etc . and the panels towards and at the luff one or two weights 'lighter' so that when reefed the lighter weight panels are 'rolled' --- all for better shape and 'smallness' of the rolled-up reefed portion ....... we're talking 'new' sail here.

You can easily cut a 150 down to a 135, add a foam luff, and even add clear vinyl 'windows' (if you keep them small and low aspect)
... but you need a furler that is capable of also reefing .... the center/middle section of the luff gets rolled up before/faster than the 'ends' of the luff, the 'furler' has 2 swivels - on the drum one at the top of the foil. If your present 'furler' isnt capable of 'reefing' then I'd start with a new reefing-furler before buying a new sail or altering an old sail.
An example of a 'true reefing furler' - Harken Mk-IV: http://www.pyacht.com/harken-mk-iv-furlers.htm ;-)

 

[s sauer]

If you convert the 15o to a luff grove instead of hanks, you can hoist it when you need a light air sail. Since you wanted to buy a new sail, why not have a 135% built exactly to what you want with a clew above the life lines; assuming your furler is capable of furling & reefing. We sail a 28.5 mast head rig with a tuff luff and no furler. I have a 155%, a 135% and the OEM 110 and no problem selecting a sail before starting out or changing one later in the day, even single handing. The extra work is involved in flaking and bagging the head sail(s) when I leave for home. If I were restricted to one headsail and not racing, I'd go with a 135-140%. I have two reef points in the mainsail for flexibility as well and rarely use the second reef or the 110. Winds on the Chesapeake are typically less than 15-20, but when they are 5-7 knots in the summer, it's nice to run the 155 instead of motoring.

 

[SailingHarry]

I sail my Sabre 34 on the Chesapeake with my willing, but somewhat inexperienced, girlfriend as my sole crew. I have a 150, 7.5oz with a foam luff. I also own, but have never flown, a 100. The days the 150 is furled down to neary 100, I really wish I was flying the 100. The challenge is that we start the day with the 150 up and rolled, and the decision to go to the 100 requires the 150 to be unrolled, dropped, and the 100 set. At the end of the day, the 100 has to be dropped and stowed, and the 150 set and rolled. And if you are out for a weekend or more, you have to figgure out how to store it all. It has yet to happen! When I'm racing (OPB's), it's easy -- you set the right sail when you get to the start line (and you have the crew to do it).

The roller is great. When was boat shopping, it was a "must have" and I mentally added the price for a new one onto any boat that didn't have it. But, it does make you lazy, and changing sails, I think, becomes much less likely to happen.

Just my thoughts.

Harry
Rantum Scoot
'79 Sabre 34
Mill Creek, Annapolis

 

[Jim5569]

Keep it simple

I live in Houston and sail on Galveston bay, where the winds can vary from zero up to hurricane force. Typically we have 5 to 15 knots in the summer and 10 to 20 knots in winter. I have an S2 9.2 (30 ft) which has roller furling, with 2 tracks. Like the previous owner, I use the boat for cruising and club racing. The previous owner had a 150 and a 110 which he would trade out depending on the wind. I found that I never used the 110, so I sold it. I had the 150 modified (foam luff added) so I could reef it by simply furling it back in from 150 to 135 to 100. The main sail is fully battened and also has 2 reef points. Now I use whatever combination of main and jib is appropriate for the wind conditions and don't have to switch sails. Granted, the furled 150 does not set as well at 110 as the original 110 did, but if you have to reef anyway, you don't worry too much about sail efficiency. At 150, the jib still sets perfectly.

 

[Warren Milberg]

I have a furling/reefing 150 and 120 on a Furlex 200 system. I tend to begin each season on the Chesapeake with the 120 as the winds are stronger at that time. I tend to change out to the 150 about this time of the year when the summer doldrums set in. The 150 has a foam luff; the 120 does not. The 150 is good until about 14 kts and then must be reduced. The 120 can to to 18 kts before reefing is needed. While both sails reef well, I would never add a foam luff again as it just creates too much bulk and doesn't seem to improve sail shape much or boat speed much. I guess I'm one who doesn't subscribe to the idea that you can only reef a headsail about 30 per cent. When needed, I've been able to reef either of these sails to half or more of their original size and still get good boat speed. When it comes time to reef, you are probably doing hull speed. I really don't care much about sail shape as the wind rises as I'm not going to exceed hull speed (unless I get a push from following seas, etc) no matter what I do. What I do care about it maintaining control and keeping the boat moving as fast as I safely can.

 

[OldCat]

I guess I'm one who doesn't subscribe to the idea that you can only reef a headsail about 30 per cent. When needed, I've been able to reef either of these sails to half or more of their original size and still get good boat speed.

Even with my inexpensive CDI, this has been my experience.

I really don't care much about sail shape as the wind rises as I'm not going to exceed hull speed (unless I get a push from following seas, etc) no matter what I do.

Ah, the misery of a heavier boat, in a light one, albeit with fewer cruising amenities, hull speed in flat water is little more than a 'specification' in the brochure. Now, if I could only match my son's best speed...

OC
(flat water, no current & luck with the winds will get a C22 to 20%+ past hull speed, reaching or close hauled)

 

[Stu Jackson]

In our Catalina 34 racing fleet here on San Fransisco Bay, where the winds during the summer are in the 25 knot true range and can be much less during spring, fall and winter (we race year round), the max headsail size is 130%. The masthead rigs are driven by the headsail, so the first reef is NOT the headsail, but the mainsail. When I was actively racing, my largest headsail was a 110% (with an 85% for really strong wind days). I never reefed my headsail, but rather chose the proper headsail for the conditions. I run the smaller headsail during the summer high wind periods, the 110 during the lighter winter season, but when racing used the 110 all the time, reefing the main first if needed (and sometimes we did!).

Conversely, folks in other parts of the country (i.e., outside SF Bay) use much larger headsails, but have to cope with the vagaries of the wind, sometimes very high, often light, and they choose at least 135's (which are the factory standard), or even larger and have trouble reefing.

Your boat, your choice, but my boat keeps moving in light air even with just the 110.

This comes from: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279243